+P ammo

[raptor]

Anyone know rather or not you can use +P ammo in a Para P12. Im not sure why I wouldnt be able to use it, but heard from someone that not all pistols will shoot +P.

[riggergreg]

You should be fine with +P ammo, but with a .45, I don't see an advantage. More noise, more recoil and more time to get back on target.

[sinclair]

Here is the 47 page manual for the Para Ordnance P12

http://combatrifle.net/pdfs/para-ordnance-manual.pdf

Note that the ammunition limitations on page six combined with the caliber designation on page 8 omit +P ammunition. This means you should ask the manufacturer and he will naturally advise against it. The dis-assembly section of the manual shows a typical 1911 recoil spring design, which lacks a recoil buffer (other than the spring) to protect from overpressure loading.

There is a chart for SAAMI 45 ACP pressures on the bottom of the second post of this page:

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507&page=5

Note that 45 +P ammo is 2000 PSI above the maximum SAAMI pressure for the 45 ACP. If the manufacturer's manual does not specifically state that it is + P capable, then they are advising against it. Higher than normal pressure ammunition will excessively wear the gun or worse.

[raptor]

Thanks for the advice. I didnt order the +P ammo, it was sent to me by mistake. Its hard to believe a gun like a Taurus slim will shoot +P and a heavy gun like the P12 wont.

[sinclair]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't order the +P ammo, it was sent to me by mistake. Its hard to believe a gun like a Taurus slim will shoot +P and a heavy gun like the P12 wont.

You are welcome. I am not sure I understand your comment about the Taurus slim. Since it is currently available in 9mm, 380 auto, and 40 SW, ie medium frame rather than the larger 45 auto frame, seems to be comparing apples to oranges. And especially so when there is NO SAAMI + P standard loading for 380 auto and 40 SW. I have not found the manual for it yet but I would bet it does NOT recommend + P loading for the 709 (9MM) either.

If I recall correctly, seems I saw you post that you had obtained the Taurus slim in the 709 (9mm) version. That means you should have the manual. Have a wade through and see if the manual clearly states the gun is +P rated. Here is how to interpret the manual.

Unless the FIREARM is explicitly MARKED as being +P rated or it is CLEARLY stated in the gun's manual, +P ammunition should not be used. If in doubt, a check by a gunsmith or a phone call to the gun's manufacturer will verify the safety of +P ammunition in a particular firearm. Ammunition that is loaded to +P pressures is clearly marked on the headstamp as such, for example a 9mm would be marked "9mm Luger +P".

The use of +P or +P+ ammunition does accelerate wear and reduces the service life on the component parts on ANY pistol. (even if rated as + P)

external source was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

[raptor]

The gentleman on gunblast.com states that he used corbon +P ammo in his review of the slim. I am not interested in using +P ammo in either firearm, as I said I recieved it by mistake. I dont understand why someone would use ammo that is so hard on the firearm. If you want more power, buy a bigger gun. I guess I will sell the ammo to someone that can use it. Thank you for your help.

[Descreet38]

I carry the same in my personal guns as we use on our department. For 9mm it is Federal HydraShok 115 gr +P+. My duty weapon (Beretta 92) has almost 17,000 rounds of +P+ and all I have done is to replace the mainspring at 1 yr. There was no problem with the spring I removed but it is policy that it be replaced at 1 yr. We had a couple of officers who had only fired their Quals so they had about 200 rounds fired in a year and still had the spring replaced.

I personally inspect my weapon - especially the locking block and it is not showing abnormal showing wear. Incidentally, The Beretta manual does not recommend +p much less +P+.

The military version - M9 shoots a 124 gr NATO round which is loaded to +P specs. My M9 from my military days had almost 200,000 rounds through it. The only replacements parts were springs, one Barrel change at about 120,000 rounds and locking block changes every 50,000 rounds (SF policy). In the special forces we shot +P+ 115 hollow points exclusively.

As far as the .45 - I have about 2,500 +P through my M1991A1 with no excessive wear but then it is a "COLT".

[raptor]

Thanks for the input Dez. I dont think Im going to take a chance even though all I would do is shoot one clip to make sure everything cycles fine, and then load it up for personal prtection. The +P ammo wouldnt be used for anything else.

[Sam]

It isn't that hard on the guns and +P45 seldom even reaches the upper limit imposed by SAAMI.
Is PARA going to say use it? No.
Just like they say don't use reloads.
Lawyerism.

[raptor]

So do you think I would be ok to use it for self defense only and not as a "practice" or "shoot up" ammo. as long as it cycles well in my gun? I dont want to sound like a moron on this subject, I have used firearms my entire life, but have no experience with +P ammo.

[sinclair]

So do you think I would be ok to use it for self defense only and not as a "practice" or "shoot up" ammo. as long as it cycles well in my gun? I don't want to sound like a moron on this subject, I have used firearms my entire life, but have no experience with +P ammo.

You are persistent enough to never sound like a moron on any topic. Kudos, and I really appreciate the humor in this follow through. I see the humor as well. You got four respondents. Lets look at the votes. On the surface it looks like three yes votes and one no vote. Lets take a closer look.

riggergreg gives a seeming yes but then sorta takes two steps back when he asks why would you want to do that. (This is a "maybe", not a "yes")

Discreet38 say he does this in his professional capacity and in the military, but look carefully, NOWHERE in his post did he advise YOU to do so. (This is not a vote either way)

Sam's answer is to stir the pot. He offers an explanation for the manufacturer's advice against + P ammo use. This is after his implication that it will not hurt the guns. But NOWHERE did he advise YOU to do so. (This is not a vote either way)

My approach was to point you in a direction to look at the safety aspects, but like Discreet 38 and Sam, NOWHERE in my posts did I advise YOU to do so.(This is not a vote either way)

I suspect riggergreg is not a reloader. I know Discreet and Sam are, as am I, and we have been for a long enough time to have watched the liability laws changing in the ammo area. So it does not surprise me that essentially, you got the same result from all three known reloaders.

In short, you did not get an answer to your problem. If pressed, I would tell you that in certain of my guns, I do use + P ammo. I would never tell YOU that it is OK for YOUR guns. I doubt that if it was put that way, none of the responders here would go on record to advise YOU to go against the advice of the manufacturer of your gun, either. But as reloaders, we personally go against the advice of our own gun manufacturers every time we fire our own ammo. That is very different from advising someone else to do that.

In honor of this discussion, I made up a quick little chart along the lines I was using in the reloading thread. (I actually do this with microsoft "paint" which everybody seems to have but never use.)

Since I think you now own the Taurus slim in 9 mm, I will throw in my two favorite bullet weights for the nine.

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/gallery/data/500/pressure9mm.JPG

[Sam]

I'll get more commital to make life easier.
Shoot the stuff.
Unless you are going to make it your regular practice ammo and you shoot 4-500 rds a week, it's a non issue

No fence sitting here.
My standard 45 ACP load is much hotter than even +p but I onlu shoot 1-200 a week

[raptor]

Thanks for the information from everyone. You have been really helpful and have shed a lot of light on this issue for me. Thanks again!

[Descreet38]

"Sinclair" good catch! - while I will speak of what I do and won't do I will never say "do it". As we know - every gun is different and so is every shooter. I apply the same policy on my reloads. They are shot in MY guns only. Even when I take a guest to the range with his gun(s). My reloads are shot in my guns and usually only by me.

One of my brother in law's comes down and reloads for homself on my equipment (and my supervision) and he shoots his loads and I shoot mine.

You are also correct in that "almost" all manufacturers do not recommend +p, +p+, or reloading and will not honor warranty if you do.

[sinclair]

"Sinclair" good catch!

Thank you, and kudos back at you. You made my point succinctly and with far fewer words and effort. I should have waited for you to come back in. Would have saved some grief trying to make charts with microsoft "paint".