Charles Daly 1911's

[Bman505]

As I continue to research 1911's, I came accross the Charles Daly Empire ECS 1911 .45 acp 3.5 Stainless. Great looking and priced great at $458. Anyone heard any pros or cons on them?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/81/81321.jpg

[sinclair]

Sounds like you were inviting the opening of a can of worms. That's what I thought when I saw the question. I have never owned or even fired a Daly pistol. I recall having heard some negatives on their early versions so I got interested and had a look around. Most articles and discussions I found are not really negative toward the newer releases. I suspect this is a typical example:

sample discussion about the Daly 1911 ECS

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-221977.html

Note that some of the few problems being discussed are NOT even gun problems. For example, the guy that says his gun not only ejected the empty case, but also a live round. That situation is a magazine problem and almost always will be related to the feed portion on the magazine. All the other issues raised seem to relate to either feeding issues or ejection issues, which simply means that the gun might be a bit preferential regarding the ammo it wants.

From my own perspective, I love a 1911, which to the purist means "Colt Model 1911", but I have no real desire for the compact version no matter who makes it. It is difficult to add a recoil buffer to the 1911 design, made even worse by the compact versions, so I see them as being more likely to come unglued with hot loads, however you want to define "hot".

Never-the-less, despite my own bias, I have to conclude that your choice here is a good one and the worst you might expect is having to search around a bit for the "perfect" ammo to go with it. But that is almost true with any semi-auto. Also, even if the gun manufacturer were to recommend it, I would NEVER shoot + P ammo in a COMPACT 1911 design. Period.

[Sam]

The CD guns are Rock Islands and work just fine

[Bman505]

Thanks for the info. It is a beautiful 1911. Sinclair, can you explain a little more on the recoil buffer? With me never owning a 1911, I have lots to learn.

[sinclair]

Thanks for the info. It is a beautiful 1911. Sinclair, can you explain a little more on the recoil buffer? With me never owning a 1911, I have lots to learn.

Guess you wanted to get even with my comment about the can of worms ? ( Grin - remember,you did ASK !) This topic really is a can of worms for some. It involves controversial gun issues that I would compare to the "metal fatigue" controversy that ended with redefined aviation after the de Havilland Comet jets started crashing in the early 50's.

Reference

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/comet/

On second thought, I have decided not to go there. Lets keep this as basic as we can. You said you have lots to learn. Me also, but lets start with your current professional experience. I suspect you could easily deluge me with your expertise on vehicles and shock designs for the chassis.

Think basic shock absorber design. A springy-thingy contained to distribute incoming shock over a larger time frame before passing the results to the chassis. Turn it sideways, make it smaller, and put it somewhere between the bolt and frame of a pistol, a semi-auto. In function we have a shock absorber. To test our understanding of this concept, how many of you would be ready to try removing the recoil spring from your pistol and then firing it ? It should function that way at least once. What would occur is a metal on metal contact over an extremely short span of time. I would be inclined to call repetitive occurrences of this condition "hammer forging" or more properly known as "cold forging" since the metal parts are below the recrystallization temperature of the metal.

Hopefully, that was enough to convince you of the importance of a shock absorber in an automatic firearm. What is meant by a "recoil buffer" is very controversial for some. Here is why. The recoil spring spreads the transfer of shock forces out over time and reduces the actual metal on metal contact force to a minimum, and to zero if the spring is strong enough to stop the recoil motion before metal on metal contact occurs. If all metal on metal contact is eliminated, fine and dandy, good to go. But what if we increase the recoil force until metal on metal contact is assured. We could always install a stronger spring until such time as the contact forces reduce again. Or we could tolerate the mild hammer forging of the slide and the frame which most already do and argue there is no apparent harm. (This ignores the physics that results in "work hardening" and the other areas I started to go with the introduction above, but decided not to even touch that.) My preferred solution is to use a "recoil buffer" whenever I have reason to believe that metal on metal contact is happening with enough force to concern me.

A "recoil buffer" is a device that is placed between the metal parts that can contact during recoil and is so designed that it will absorb the elastic/plastic deformation that might otherwise be transferred to the metal contacting parts. This means the buffer will wear out quickly if they work right, and your pistol stays tight and functional without excessive wear. Unfortunately, many semi-auto gun designs have not incorporated the recoil buffer concept, which is why the controversy can rage on gun forums today. A recoil buffer addition that is not part of the gun design will add a failure mode that self defense advocates say makes the gun more unreliable than otherwise.

The original 1911 design does not incorporate a recoil buffer. One can be added easily enough but it will reduce the allowable slide motion in the 1911 design by about one tenth of an inch. This is just enough to cause trouble in some 1911 manufacturer's guns. With the COMPACT versions, the reduction is the same dimension but the "percentage" of slide motion lost is much greater, so the problems are more likely.

I have a Colt Combat Elite 1911 which wears a recoil buffer whenever I am testing loads that approach the SAAMI maximum pressure, whenever it shoots near SAAMI max loads, and even more rarely, whenever it shoots +P pressure loads. The majority of loads it shoots the most accurate are below the pressure where its metal parts contact at all, the recoil spring performing at its best. That is when it does not wear a recoil buffer (no need) and would be the configuration I trust for SD purposes. The recoil buffer is just another part to insert or not when cleaning the pistol. And a real education to remove and REPLACE after shooting a lot of +P stuff.

Here is a relatively inexpensive recoil buffer for the 1911. They do not last very long but for the price, think of the "hammer forging" this absorbs rather than the metal parts of the gun.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=241631

Below is my preference for the Colt 1911 (Combat Elite) when load testing or shooting +P loads. (Caution: +P is NOT recommended by Colt, but neither are reloads.) The linked photo shows exactly where to install it if you are familiar with the 1911 design. A true, drop-in part.

http://www.buffertech.com/stores/1/COLT_1911_CLONES_P3.cfm

[Bman505]

The Shok-Buff prevents the slide from battering the frame during recoil by sandwiching a 1/10" thick poly fiber buffer between the slide and frame contact areas. Provides the optimum balance between shock absorption and longevity. Easily replaceable after absorbing up to 1,000 rounds of repeated firings, the Shok-Buff slides over the recoil spring guide between the guide and spring. Fits Government and Commander models. Package of six buffers.

Technical Information

Material:
Buffers made of molded poly fiber.
Notes:
Replacements for Shok-Buff kits (185-341 and 512-261)
Recommended for use with heavy duty recoil springs.
Replace every 1,000 rounds


This would have worked fine for me but thank you for breaking it down even more. Your knowledge on this forum is much appreciated by me!

[Descreet38]

Sinclair - nice and thorough explanation. The buffertech is also my choice.

[Bman505]

I was just told by one of my local dealers that Charles Daly is in the process of closing its business. He said that dealers are dumping their remaining inventory. He advised against going with Charles Daly.

[sinclair]

The buffertech is also my choice.

Thank you. I am used to being viewed as "persnikity" and picky about reloads and firearm care. Nice to know I am not alone.

He advised against going with Charles Daly.

The going out of business is true. I cannot reach their help forum site. Many gun blogs are talking about it. Here is a sample.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/01/30/charles-daly-kbi-gone-out-of-business/

Effective 29 Jan, 2010, they are gone. At this point, my advice to you changes. Grab the gun ! Maybe negotiate a better price ?
The stainless will be the better collector item and parts for a 1911 will always be around. If the name brand does not rise again,
the value of the 1911 in stainless should double within five years or less, since it has no outstanding problem issues. Keep it
"new in box" and trade even in a few years for a top line name brand.

[Sam]

Rather than a buffer, you are better off with a "square" firing pin retainer.
It delays unlock just a tad and is better for the gun than a buffer you may forget to remove.

http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_41&products_id=36