Dave's Guns

[jlsalc]

I would like to have a formal review of the quality of service at Dave's Guns in Alamogordo New Mexico. I'll start with a recent purchase I made.

On June 8, 2010 my son graduated from the Police Academy in Hobbs. I purchased a Knoxx Stock and Power Pack for my son's Mossberg as a graduation gift. Eighteen days later my son tried it out for the first time. After 6 rounds were fired the stock collapsed and did not return to it's full position. It appeared that the spring had disengaged or collapsed. My son went to Dave's Guns and asked for an exchange since it was less than three weeks old and had not been used but once. Dave stated that he would have to contact the factory. His return policy is as such: all items returned had to be in proper working condition in the original package as to re-sell said item. I posed this question. What was the benefit of buying local if you had to contact the company (BlackHawk) for a replacement of a defective item. I would have the same service, if not better if it were purchased through the internet. I do realize it helps the local economy, but you cannot stand behind that shield to answer you short comings as a local vendor. I for one will not step foot in this store again.

I know this was lengthy, but I appreciate all who read especially local community members who will head this warning.

***Do NOT expect good service when you walk into Dave's Guns***

[Bman505]

I have had similar experience. Not my favorite place to shop!

[Colt 45]

I haven't been in Dave's Guns in several years. All of my experiences were bad. I went back several times, thinking that my previous experience was an anomaly. No more. I am sorry for what happened to you.

Max

[Descreet38]

One of the things to ensure you do is to inform BlackHawk of their policy. I am sure they would be interested in one of their dealers treating a valued customer in this manner.

[jlsalc]

inform BlackHawk of their policy

I plan on doing exactly that. Hopefully this will trickle down. Dave's Guns had two available, both with so much dust on them it was apparent that no one was going to miss the second while they replenished stock.

[357 S&W]

I agree that they have very poor customer service. Anytime I walked in there I felt like I was not welcomed and when I ask some questions the response are usually curt. I took a shotgun in there once to see if he was interested in it. He asked me what I wanted for it and I told him the best price I can get. He gave it back to me and said he was not interested.

He is my last place I go to when looking for things.

[Colt 45]

I hate to slam a business but that is the way I have been treated every time. There is no reason for it. I figure that they just don't care if they get my business, so if I can't find what I am looking for there, I order online. Thank God that is an option. I too, would rather buy locally but only from those who appreciate my business.

Max

I agree that they have very poor customer service. Anytime I walked in there I felt like I was not welcomed and when I ask some questions the response are usually curt. I took a shotgun in there once to see if he was interested in it. He asked me what I wanted for it and I told him the best price I can get. He gave it back to me and said he was not interested.

He is my last place I go to when looking for things.

[Sam]

You can get away with that when you are the only game in town.

[Bman505]

There is that new place at the La Luz gate road. It used to be the Tularosa trading post. I haven't been there yet but have heard nothing but good things from them.

[jlsalc]

I purchased my Glock27 from them and my son purchased an AR there. Good deals and good people to work with. They have limited stock, but I assume they could get anything you wanted if you were willing to wait for an internet purchase anyway. I would highly recommend them. Ricochet Sports is there name.

[sinclair]

How many of you have actually tried to run a small business ? And how many of those have tried to do that in Alamogordo ? Please notice that I have my hand up. Anyone else ? I ran a small business from 1995 until 2003 in
Alamogordo. If you can survive the experience here, you can make it anywhere. I have never seen anything to compare to providing a service to people here. A truly good customer was scarce as hens teeth. When you bend over backwards and go the extra mile, there is rarely a thank you, instead you are treated with even less respect. I learned rather quickly that those I spent the most time and effort trying to make things work right for them were the FIRST to tell me to shove it, badmouth me, and actually go out of their way to castigate my business. There is also an inverse relationship between expectations and price. The lower the price, the more is expected from you. This relationship holds all the way down to "free". During periods of promotions or advertising, when some services were offered for free, the level of bitching and moaning went asymptotic. Oddly, as the service price goes up, the bitching and moaning goes down.

If I were suddenly designated to be the only shop in town to provide the air to the locals, well, you would all end up asphyxiated.

[jlsalc]

Sinclair, I'm sorry about your experiences with the local community. I have never run an actual store front, although I do own a business. I find that if I treat my customers with respect and courtesy, I get the same in return. I have yet to run into the customers you had. I have over 20 years of customer service experience and I could definitely teach the salespeople/staff at Dave's Guns a thing or two about that. No matter the case there is no reason to treat people/customers in that manner. My 2 cents..

P.S. I would not leave the local community to asphyxiate.. I would gladly sell oxygen to all. ha

[sinclair]

I have never run an actual store front, although I do own a business.

Better than I hoped for. And you are the OP of the thread. Excellent. I did not make that post to seek sympathy for past experiences. I would not take anything for what I have learned about running a small business here. But I would not give a wooden nickel to repeat the experience.

I wanted to show a bit of the other side of the coin you tossed with your original post. It is easy to get a "me too" thing going, just look at your responses. It is human nature to jump on any band-wagon. But if you really feel the need to try to change a situation, there are more positive ways to accomplish this. First of all, this is a public place. Do you know whether or not what is said here is available to someone associated with Dave's guns ? Do you even care ? If not, then your first post is simple, bare castigation and I have no further interest in the thread. If you do care, then lets pretend that this thread might find its way to the subject personnel. And if that happens it just might change something.

If you are going to be able to influence change, you must be able to clarify a problem and propose solutions. To illustrate, please allow me to be difficult and obstinate. I am very confused by your first post. You started with this:

I would like to have a formal review of the quality of service at Dave's Guns in Alamogordo New Mexico. I'll start with a recent purchase I made.

OK, we are talking a gun retailer who does a bit of gunsmithing service. So I am expecting a problem with a gun purchase and most likely a gunsmithing service problem. Reading further, that is not what I see at all. You purchased what appears to be an accessory type (purchaser installed) item with a manufacturer's defect (Knoxx stock) and seem to be upset that the retailer would not exchange the item a few weeks later for another (and perhaps similarly defective, purchaser installed item). Your very next post indicates you are so upset with this lack (?) of retailer (?) service that you are going to make the defective item manufacturer (Blackhawk) aware of this retailer's failing to make good on the manufacturer's (Blackhawk's) defects. No wonder I am confused. That was hard to keep straight just rewording it. What's WRONG with this picture ?

Let me help. What I get from your post is that if I wanted something manufactured by Blackhawk, I need to research well as there may be a level of defective products out there. Now, I wish you to clarify something for me.
In light of your second quotation just above, you indicate a formal review of "quality of service". Just what does that mean ? Compared to what ? How does a manufacturer's defect relate to a retailer ? How should it relate ?

See how much fun this can be ? And on that note, I need to apologize in advance to 357 S&W because I cannot resist taking a whack at that post. You seem to agree the service is bad because the retailer in question
did not want to be a Pawn Shop. I gotta admit that one cracked me up real good.

[jlsalc]

Well Sinclair, I can appreciate a good debate. Thank you for taking the time to chime in.

Maybe you are right. Maybe a small town business should not be held to the same standards as let's say Wal-Mart. If I purchase ANY item there and ask for an exchange it is there policy to do such. Either way, customer service in this small town privately owned shop is still in question. I have yet to run into anyone, besides you, who has even had one thing remotely nice to say about an experience with the owner or sales staff with Dave's Guns. I should have elaborated better in my original post. If when I spoke to Dave, he sounded or even gave a hint that he was concerned with my problem then went on to explain as a small business owner that he could not afford to make the exchange I would have never posted this in the first place. His blatant disregard for customer satisfaction should have been the theme of this post.

If I were the owner of this shop and I couldn't make the exchange because of some strange policy that I (as the owner) decided was necessary to keep my small business afloat, at the very least I would have said something like the following

Well Mr Jerkface, I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused but my policy dictates that all merchandise returned must be in resell-able condition. However, if you return the store I will gladly call (insert company name here) and have a replacement item shipped to my store where I will return your item at no more inconvenience to you. Oh, and on behalf of my staff, I would like to thank you for shopping at Dave's Guns, where we are happy to have your business.

Sinclair, Thank you for showing me the error of my ways. My next post will be more direct and to the point.

***(in my opinion) Dave and the staff at Dave's Guns needs to learn a thing or two about customer service.****

[Bman505]

I love forums! You guys are all great and I am so glad to have you all a part of concealcarrychat.com!

[sinclair]

Well, Jlsalc, I also enjoy a good debate, and thank you for caring about these things.

A debate, a critique, a review, are not these different facets of the same cut ? I was taught long ago to avoid "all-inclusive statements" in any of these facets because you become vulnerable to being cut-off at the knees with a single counter point. Lets try an easy example, since I expected you to use Wal-Mart as a comparison.

If I purchase ANY item there (Wal-Mart) and ask for an exchange it is their policy to do such.

Rather "all-inclusive" with a bonus "blue-light" special when you emphasized the word "ANY" with all caps. Next time you get a chance, go over to the firearm area of Wal-Mart and casually look around the glass-counter area for a sign that says something to the effect of "All Sales are Final" or "No exchanges, Manufacturer 's Warranty applies". I have seen several versions in various different Wal-Mart locations. Can't remember what the local one has posted but there was one to that effect the last time I looked.

Better yet, if you ever do procure a firearm at Wal-Mart, just for giggles, try taking it back the next day. (Be sure you leave it boxed up when you walk in with it.)

And do NOT return firearm items this way:

http://consumerist.com/2007/09/man-attempts-to-return-walmart-ammunition-at-1300-feet-per-second.html

A couple of points here are

1. If you compare local customer service to Wal-Mart, compare the right Wal-Mart section to the appropriate local service.

2. If you use Wal-Mart as a comparison, understand the difference between apples and oranges. Wal-Mart is not a retailer in the same sense as a local business. Wal-Mart is also invested in the manufacturer/supplier side of commerce and depending on the location, might be considered a source rather than a retail outlet. I believe their customer service orientation may be more due to legal aspects of that situation than due to a simple aim to please customers. Wal-Mart can also dictate the terms of a contract to their suppliers/manufacturers and thus levy all exchange costs to the manufacturer by contract. I do not know of any small local business that can do that. Conclusion: no limits to extent of customer service if its costs are paid for by somebody else. I do not believe Wal-Mart pays for it at all. I believe the costs associated with exchange services are primarily paid for by local businesses when they do this.

Profits and Perils of Supplying to Wal-Mart
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jul2009/sb20090714_270767.htm

See for yourself directly
http://walmartstores.com/suppliers/252.aspx

I will give you, Jlsalc, total credit for the first proposed solution for Dave's guns service policy. If it was my business, and if Jlsalc is going to compare me to Wal-Mart, I would copy Wal-Mart's own firearm service policy. I would pick this version and post it prominently in the shop.

"NO Exchanges; Manufacturer's Warranty Fully Applies."

Jlsalc, Thank you for tricking me into a headache. My next post will definitely avoid researching Wal-Mart.

[jlsalc]

Great research, I can definitely tell you have more time on your hands than I do.

Sinclair, since you brought up comparing apples to oranges, and I do realize I left myself wide open with the "ANY" in my previous post I apologize. However, a BlackHawk Knox Stock with Power Pack would not apply to this policy. Since it is neither a firearm nor ammunition.

Yes, I can see that an open ended statement can leave me open, however, I stand by my original statement, Dave's Gun's owner and staff could learn a few things about customer servicer and how to gain repeat business. Have a great day Sinclair. I intend to.

[sinclair]

I can definitely tell you have more time on your hands than I do.

Really ? I am retired but that is in my user profile. That doesn't mean I cannot use my time efficiently. I probably spent all of 10 minutes on that post, mostly wading thru Wal-Mart stuff. It was worse than the oil soaked beaches on the Gulf.

As to your apology, no need. I apologize if you thought that was what I was after. I have seen other forums that really do use such things to chop apart their members, I would rather use it as an example to show the potential problem there. Hopefully, that is how it came across. If I did that correctly, I hope you were not insulted in any way but will remember the example if you ever find yourself attacked by that technique. I was trying to show the vulnerability, NOT the attack methods.

As to the statement you say you stand behind. I agree with it. I would go a step further and say that statement applies to most small business places as well. But the statement is so generic that I do not know what it really means. The reason I have an interest here is best explained by your other statements.

I would like to have a formal review of the quality of service at Dave's Guns in Alamogordo New Mexico.

Got my attention there. Lots of promise in that and I really hope to learn from this formal review.

I know this was lengthy, but I appreciate all who read especially local community members who will head this warning.

Warning ? What was the warning ? I missed something important ? (That is where I decided to respond.)

I have over 20 years of customer service experience and I could definitely teach the salespeople/staff at Dave's Guns a thing or two about that. No matter the case there is no reason to treat people/customers in that manner.

I am an attentive student. This is a good soapbox. What could you teach ? What is the manner of treatment you are referring to ? Plus the other questions in my second post above.

[jlsalc]

Lot of ground to cover Sinclair on a post that I figured was winding down. No, you did not insult me and I didn't believe you were after an apology. I was apologizing because as a small business owner in our community I was concerned that you were treated so unfairly - if in fact you offered a good service that was needed by the community and followed it up with customer service. It was a genuine apology.

When the original post was written it was in the heat of the moment. I was still upset over the lack of interest Dave had to help me resolve my problem.

My "warning" was simple. If you shop here don't expect help much past the register.

Ok student Sinclair, customer service is easy. You make someone happy they tell no one. You make someone mad they tell everyone. As far as sales, I did my best to reach a compromise that would make everyone happy (or happy enough). But no matter what happened in the transaction, the customer knew whole heartedly that I had a genuine interest and concern for their problems. They always knew i cared.

[sinclair]

I agree, a really lot of ground to cover for just two folk. I am lazy so lets make it easier by bringing some of your thread responders back in to do the heavy lifting.

My "warning" was simple. If you shop here don't expect help much past the register.

Thank you, now I see why I missed it. To me that is a common-sense rule of thumb that "goes without saying". Wording it another way, when I walk into a small business, I know it is NOT Wal-Mart.

You make someone happy they tell no one. You make someone mad they tell everyone.

Another rule of thumb but should be in all CAPS. That tells me you do have "direct" business experience with customer service. The first part is just the way things are. The second part is what makes customer service a variable that depends on the beliefs and feelings of the customer. In my own experience I never believed I was treated "unfairly". I was just being forced to learn to deal with the false assumptions and even ignorance of customers and just what would make them mad at the wrong things. As an example, lets try to bring Bman505 into the debate from his business perspective.

Here is the example, tailored to current events. Lets say that I bought a new vehicle a few days or weeks ago and I believe I did so with a good faith transaction involving Bman505. Lets say I had a serious accident today and I believe my vehicle suddenly accelerated right into the car in front of me, despite having slammed on the brake. (REMEMBER FOLKS, FICTICIOUS EXAMPLE ONLY) I believe I would never have bought the car without the
assurance and good feelings I got from Bman505. So I decide to sue Bman505 because I believe it is his fault. What's wrong with this picture ?

On page one, Descreet38 suggests that Jlsalc should complain about the local service TO the very manufacturer of the defective item that is the center piece of the thread. Can you see the relationship between these
postings and the gross example I just completed ? (If you come in Bman505, I left you lots of room to maneuver. The real topic there is the problem and results of mis-directed customer anger)

I have already commented about the good chuckle I got from 357S&W's post.

Now I find Sam to be the source for a spark here (idea). His post on page one, combined with Bman505's response to it suggests a context for this thread. Meaning background information (thumbnail history of the "only" gun shops here).

[Jizzle]

And we're off. I just want to point out that it's not me arguing this time...

Now I'll sit back down and watch from the sidelines.

[sinclair]

And we're off.

Or not.

You may have wasted the popcorn and cozy front row seat.

I think the other side took their keyboards and went home.

[Jizzle]

Doh. WTF? It was just getting good. I was enjoying myself.

[Colt 45]

I guess no one wants to argue if you are not involved!

Max

[Jizzle]

Booo.......

[jlsalc]

I wouldn't walk away from a good argument, however, I thought we were having a civil discussion about semantics. Apparently conceding to the fact that I was upset while writing was not enough for sinclair. My opinion of DG has not changed no matter how many times Sinclair points out my error in writing..... Either way, yes I think most people would rather argue with Jizzle.. ha.

I was gone doing more important stuff like coaching baseball working on a state championship. This is the reason I became quiet.

[Bman505]

Awesome, Did you guys win it?

[jlsalc]

We came in 2nd in the state. It was a great time. Thanks for asking.