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View Full Version : Fear over economy lead to more gun permits


Bman505
08-24-2009, 09:46 AM
HELENA, Mont. -- Gun owners worried that a bad economy could lead to increased violence and suspicious that new stricter gun laws are on the horizon are rushing in record numbers to get concealed weapons permits.

From Washington state to Florida, state officials say more people are deciding to pack heat. In some cases, states are reporting a near doubling in the number of concealed carry permits.

The firearms industry has seen a big jump in sales and interest following last fall's elections, driven by a fear that Democrats could dig up old gun control policies. But the economy is also on the mind of many getting new permits to carry a hidden gun. Some worry the recession will get worse, leaving people to resort to theft and violence.

"I do think there are going to be people who have very little, and they are going to decide you have too much and come get it," said Rochelle Haughton of Billings, who described herself as a middle-aged housewife who likes to bring a gun when she travels on the open highway.

In Montana, authorities are on pace to issue twice as many concealed weapons permits than last year - and this is in a state that only requires such permits if you go into an incorporated city. They are unnecessary everywhere else.

Gary Marbut, president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, said students taking his gun training classes report underlying worries on gun control and violence. He said the economy is prompting anxiety over what could happen next - to the point some think social order could start to break down.

"People are making decisions based on some anxiety, rather than having thought it totally through entirely," he said.

Police in states around the country are unable to keep up with the pace of concealed weapons permits.

The Texas Department of Public Safety says it is hiring temporary workers to help process a surge in applications. Oklahoma also reports a near doubling in concealed carry permit applications. North Dakota officials say concealed weapons permit applications are up a third over last year.

The trend stretches from Washington state to Florida, where police expect to process at least 50 percent more applications than a year ago. That state is also turning to temporary workers to help deal with the work.

Florida was one of the first states two decades ago to pass a concealed-carry law. Interest blossomed quickly, and now nearly all states have such a law. Gun advocates call the program wildly successful, pointing to the increased popularity of such permits.

Critics say the laws - and interest in packing a hidden gun - are a result of senseless paranoia. Those closest to the big jump in permits this year cite the well-documented interest in buying guns and ammunition ever since the President Barack Obama's election - along with the unsettling nature of the recession.

Others point out that Obama and Democrats have not moved to restrict guns in any way - and in fact they have done the opposite. The president signed a bill in May that permits licensed gun owners to bring firearms into national parks - undoing rules that, ironically, came from the Reagan administration adored by many gun advocates.

"The notion that there is some great threat looming on the horizon is horse manure," said Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Hamm said he is mystified by people getting concealed weapons permits and buying new handguns over economic fears.

"I know in a tight economy, I think of things not to spend money on rather than on things I need to spend money on right away," he said. "If your response to anxiety is to buy a firearm, you should probably take a deep breath."

The National Rifle Association fell just short of persuading Congress earlier this summer to force states to recognize the concealed weapons permits from other states. Some states voluntarily accept such "reciprocity," but the proposal would have forced all to do so on a widespread basis.

Edward Avilla, who runs a gun Web site called AR-15.com, lives in Rochester, N.Y., but got a new permit from Utah this year even though he already holds one in his home state. The Utah permits are popular with aficionados because nonresidents can get one through a distance class and because it is accepted in 17 other states.

"The fall in the economy does make people feel insecure and want to defend their home," said Avilla. "I do know that it is motivation for a lot of people."

Avilla runs a forum popular with assault rifle fans. But he also says he practices with his handguns very frequently - and self defense is on his mind.

"I carry concealed basically for preservation of life. I value my life and that of others around me," said Avilla. "I do hope, however, I never have to use it in my entire life."

Longtime holders of permits are not surprised by the big surge in interest. "The reason is simple: People are afraid of what's going to happen," said Bart Bonney, a retiree living in Anaconda who recently renewed his own permit.

Leslie Strangford of Baker said he primarily uses his permit so he can bring a gun when he travels with his wife. The rancher said he doesn't feel like he needs a concealed handgun around the small agricultural community where he lives, where guns are a common part of life and often hang in the back of pickup trucks.

"I guess it's a sign of the times, every so often you hear about someone that is traveling and gets threatened," he said. "Being as I was traveling all over, I thought it was time to get a permit."

By MATT GOURAS
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

blkdragon1212
08-26-2009, 08:26 AM
It has been a trend that we have seen for years in law enforcement. When the ecconomy goes south, the crime rate goes up. I applaud those who have taken it upon themselves to pick up the banner, of self-defense.

It would stand to reason that a group of people in Washington, attempting to make government the God of the people will attempt to disarm the electorate sooner than later.

It is standard operating proceedure for Tyrants, and Dictators. I only wish it did not take clouds on the horizon to wake people up. I guess it is better late than never.

It is my hope that we arm ourselves, not just with firearms, but with knowledge about our country, laws, and our representatives. Find out who, what, and how they vote. Hold their feet to the fire, and never let up.


Scott J. Williams
http://www.blackdragonpersonalprotection.com/

rtuck77
08-29-2009, 06:42 PM
knowledge is the best weapon,but sometimes it needs help from another tool.

Outlaw50
08-30-2009, 07:49 AM
It has been a trend that we have seen for years in law enforcement. When the ecconomy goes south, the crime rate goes up. I applaud those who have taken it upon themselves to pick up the banner, of self-defense.

It would stand to reason that a group of people in Washington, attempting to make government the God of the people will attempt to disarm the electorate sooner than later.

It is standard operating proceedure for Tyrants, and Dictators. I only wish it did not take clouds on the horizon to wake people up. I guess it is better late than never.

It is my hope that we arm ourselves, not just with firearms, but with knowledge about our country, laws, and our representatives. Find out who, what, and how they vote. Hold their feet to the fire, and never let up.


Scott J. Williams
http://www.blackdragonpersonalprotection.com/

So just for the sake of discussion, how is it good for people to "register" and apply for a "permit" to carry? Is this not just another ruse being used by the wannabe tyrants to gain knowledge of who has weapons and what they have?

I'm just askin'....http://i41.tinypic.com/2yy6n90.jpg

Jizzle
08-30-2009, 11:03 AM
just another reason i prefer oc in nm.

Bman505
08-30-2009, 04:28 PM
I believe there will always a discussion betweens those who like to OC and those who prefer to CC. There is not a right or wrong answer to which one is better. It is all personal preference. It is what you are comfortable doing.

Outlaw50
08-31-2009, 05:44 AM
Personally I like both OC & CC.......I just have a problem with bureaucratic restrictions (infringements) being placed on my choice....http://i36.tinypic.com/2n934p.jpg

Jizzle
08-31-2009, 12:52 PM
ya as do i. i just don't like having licenses to carry. if i dont' have to i wont.

Jizzle
08-31-2009, 01:05 PM
i promise i wasnt starting an oc vs cc debate.

Bman505
08-31-2009, 02:57 PM
I know you weren't. I know you have in the past though too!

sinclair
09-02-2009, 12:27 AM
So just for the sake of discussion, how is it good for people to "register" and apply for a "permit" to carry? Is this not just another ruse being used by the wannabe tyrants to gain knowledge of who has weapons and what they have?

Two excellent questions. Although I am not a carry person (other than hunting or traveling where the car does the carrying) I may have the qualification to answer your first question, having recently submitted for a carry permit in this state. NO firearm was registered with the permit application. I can't speak for other states, though. My reason for wanting the permit is a logical deduction that it would serve as the "canary in the mine shaft". When the government decides citizens with guns are a problem, you can bet that the concealed carry permits will float right to the top, and these people will be among the first to know.

Your second question assumes that tyrants will work and plan hard when they usually don't. Occam's Razor applies here. The tyrant will take the easiest path available. Something like lock down the NRA headquarters and impound their membership archives. Which would yield the most potential gun owners? The ruse you suspect or the sample method on the NRA? And which would be the easiest to do ?

Outlaw50
09-03-2009, 06:22 AM
Two excellent questions. Although I am not a carry person (other than hunting or traveling where the car does the carrying) I may have the qualification to answer your first question, having recently submitted for a carry permit in this state. NO firearm was registered with the permit application. I can't speak for other states, though. My reason for wanting the permit is a logical deduction that it would serve as the "canary in the mine shaft". When the government decides citizens with guns are a problem, you can bet that the concealed carry permits will float right to the top, and these people will be among the first to know.

Your second question assumes that tyrants will work and plan hard when they usually don't. Occam's Razor applies here. The tyrant will take the easiest path available. Something like lock down the NRA headquarters and impound their membership archives. Which would yield the most potential gun owners? The ruse you suspect or the sample method on the NRA? And which would be the easiest to do ?

Actually, I would not put anything out of the realm of possibility with the people who are anti-gun. I have a hard time with the concept of registering either my name or weapons with any government program. I looked into the so-called "legal" way of CC in the state of Ohio and was outraged by the very first portion of commentary on the AG's website.

"Obtaining a concealed handgun permit in Ohio is a privilege earned by those who complete a thorough application and training regimen. With this privilege comes a responsibility to be aware of the common sense rules of safe firearm handling, the laws that affect how, when and where license holders can carry a firearm and how to properly use the handgun to defend yourself or another person."

"Privilege"..........http://i31.tinypic.com/b665ba.gif.....We the citizens are being "granted" a "privilege" by some public servant/servants........This is backwards if you ask me.....http://i27.tinypic.com/15mg4k9.gif

I believe that we have the right of self protection regardless of any nonsense the government wants to attempt to force upon us. I also believe that the 2nd Amendment while not granting a right to keep & bear arms is a restraint placed on government and any action by government to regulate who owns firearms or what firearms are owned IS an infringement on the right of citizens.

In other words it is my opinion that this law is illegal and the folks who created it are in direct violation of the US Constitution......http://i26.tinypic.com/3520un7.gif

sinclair
09-03-2009, 10:01 PM
It is the "Incorporation issue" which will be the big battle ground for the second amendment.

In the National Rifle Ass’n of America v. City of Chicago, 567 F.3d 856 (7th Cir. 2009), it was concluded that the Second Amendment (under current Supreme Court law) is not one of the parts of the Bill of Rights that has been incorporated by the Fourteenth Amendment and thereby made applicable to the states.

Without incorporation, a state government, unless prohibited by their own state constitution, can and does mess with the 2nd amendment, since taken alone, the 2nd amendment restricts only the Federal Government.

In the District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008), which struck down an ordinance of the District of Columbia that flatly prohibited the possession of handguns, the "incorporation issue" was not resolved.

Outlaw50
09-04-2009, 04:21 AM
Not tryin' to be a pain in the butt.........BUT......how is it that all the other amendments are not able to be messed with and this one is?

To make this concept possible the entire constitution would have to be subject to the state being able to circumvent the rights of the citizens.....I heartily disagree with that idea....http://i27.tinypic.com/15mg4k9.gif

To accept this would be to accept the state being able to suddenly tell me to shut up because they don't like what I have to say.........or that I have no right to privacy in my home and no warrant is needed to come in and search it....or that the state can dictate which religion I choose to practice...

The way I see it is that the US Constitution tells the federal government that it not only has no authority to infringe on our right to "keep & bear arms" it also has an obligation to prevent anyone else from doing so as stated in the 10th amendment....including the State governments.....jmo

By the way, since when did the SCOTUS gain more power than the other two branches of our government?

sinclair
09-04-2009, 08:19 PM
To make this concept possible the entire constitution would have to be subject to the state being able to circumvent the
rights of the citizens.....I heartily disagree with that idea

Constitutional Law is convoluted. Most states neatly bypassed the incorporation issue by adding the Bill of Rights to their own state constitution. This state is one of them. Some states did not do that. Without 14th ammendment incorporation, those few states cannot be forced to comply since the constitution does not grant that kind of authority over the states to the federal government. The issue itself is worth study and the history behind it is not pretty. Neither are the possible results. Want some current and frightening examples that go beyond just the 2nd amendment ?

Legal authority Iowa Code chapter 135, 139A, and 641, you can be removed from your home and detained without rights:

http://www2a.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/Facility%20Quarantine%20Order%20novelflu%20filled% 20in%204-30-09.pdf

This is the one that some news outlets have picked up on, Massachusetts new Act just out.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/186/st02pdf/st02028.pdf


And yes, I feel your pain. So do those who are beginning to understand

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=108604

Check the list of other states at the bottom of this (above) article, you may live in one.

Outlaw50
09-05-2009, 08:28 AM
The only info I can find about the "state of emergency" that was declared in Ohio is dealing with the windstorms and floods we had..........I can't find anything about this flu BS...http://i27.tinypic.com/15mg4k9.gif

That don't mean I will stop lookin'.....lol

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________

Well, that didn't take long.........we are on this now!

http://www2a.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/H1N1%20Influenza%20SNS%20042809.pdf

sinclair
09-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Well, that didn't take long.........we are on this now!

Thanks for that reference. I haven't had a chance to check all states. I have added that one to my collection. Are you familiar with the term : "under the radar" ? This stuff is really happening and I do not have a clue what it means.

Grampa
09-06-2009, 01:18 PM
It may mean that what they can't get one way, they will get another. Congress has determined that Gun Control legislation would be career ending for too many members. However, the Attorney General has said that both he and Pres. Obama would welcome more rules on firearms. Can you think of a better way to get the job done (remember Hurricane Katrina), with no political cost to Congress? They didn't vote for it, and can act all angry and call for investigations and not lose a vote, while the people they are supposed to serve are losing even more liberties, (remember the Patriot Act)? Remember that line about having the most open and transparent government Barack was promising when he ran for the job? All I've seen so far is double speak. Remember when he campaigned if Penn. and Ohio, then went to San Francisco and joked about them clinging to their guns and religion? I don't trust any of them.

Outlaw50
09-12-2009, 06:01 AM
With the confirmation of Cass Sunstien this week by congress we had better be on our toes for some "under the radar" regulations to come down and try to circumvent the right of self protection...

This guy is an absolute nightmare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein

http://www.nudges.org/Sunstein.cfm

http://home.uchicago.edu/~csunstei/index.html

http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/12/cass-sunstein-regulation-czar-opinions-contributors-senate.html

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=109594

http://www.stopsunstein.com/

He believes in the right of animals to sue humans, he believes that hunting is cruelty and should be outlawed, and he does not believe humans have any right of self protection and particularly we have no right to own firearms...

Watch out for the things he tries to implement while on this tyrannical Whitehouse staff.....This guy is more dangerous to our rights and the US Constitution than any other person so far brought to Washington by Obama....http://i36.tinypic.com/14aya7d.jpg

Bman505
09-12-2009, 10:01 AM
I think this guy is a little out there. He will still have to go through a a series of hearings to get the spot I do believe. With some of the things I am reading, he has a tough road ahead of him. Obama hasn't had very much luck with his selection of staff so far(Other than Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor).

Outlaw50
09-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Hmmmm.... http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27019.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhgvJfPRkG8

sinclair
09-19-2009, 08:49 PM
Outlaw50, yes I have read what you posted. We live in dangerous times. I recall from history that Hitler actually managed to come to power in Germany quasi-legally. He never even had to arrange to get rid of Chancellor Hindenburg. I have never been as concerned about our future as I have over the last few months. Half the country is still mesmerized and the media is totally "out to lunch".

Can you think of a better way to get the job done

Yes, I am inclined to consider what our enemies think is going on may have some merit.

This is written by a US Journalist but quoted and massaged by Al Jazeera.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/09/200991982551725714.html

Here is the last line in the article:
"Could a form of martial law be imminent? Obama appears ready to cross the Rubicon, and all he needs is a killer virus."

Bear in mind the source. Al Jazeera aint exactly our best friend.