What, Exactly, Is a ‘Cop-Killer’ Gun?

[Bman505]

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2009/11/800px-five-seven_usg.jpg

* By Nathan Hodge Email Author
* November 7, 2009 |
* 4:12 pm |
* Categories: Military Life
*

800px-five-seven_usgNews reports on the Fort Hood rampage say that the alleged shooter, Maj. Nidal Hasan, used an FN Herstal Five-Seven pistol — described in some reports as a “cop killer” gun.

What, exactly, makes the Five-Seven different from other handguns?

The Five-Seven is chambered for the 5.7 x 28mm cartridge, ammunition originally developed by FN Herstal for the FN P90 Personal Defense Weapon. The P90 was conceived as a compact, powerful weapon that could be carried by aircraft crews, vehicle drivers and other troops who needed a weapon that was smaller than a carbine but larger than a pistol.

The P90 — like a competing personal defense weapon design, the 4.6mm Heckler & Koch MP7 — is supposed to pack more punch than submachine guns that fire a standard pistol rounds (9mm, say, or .45). And personal defense weapons are supposed to be capable of penetrating some kinds of body armor. As it happens, the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Georgia, has been mulling the requirements for a personal defense weapon for a few years now, although it’s far from clear the Army would procure a weapon built around a new cartridge.

I’ve seen a range demo of the MP7, and it can indeed punch through a “soft” vest or a Kevlar helmet (whether it could penetrate SAPI plates is a different matter). Gun control group The Brady Campaign says it bought and test-fired a Five-Seven, and that it successfully penetrated a police vest. That said, it doesn’t seem quite accurate to call the Five-Seven a pocket-sized assault rifle. Its barrel would give it a lower muzzle velocity than a PN90; likewise, it strikes me as unlikely that it would give a shooter much more accuracy and effective range than a standard pistol. And plain-vanilla pistol round can be devastating enough: Think of the Virginia Tech shooter, who used a Glock 9mm and Walther .22.

We don’t know at this point a lot of the details: Exactly what kind of ammunition the shooter used; how many shots in total were fired; and at what range. That will take a lot of police work, and a lot of patience.

Still, the tragedy at Fort Hood seems likely to renew debate: Both on gun control, and on the kinds of measures to protect troops while they are on base, and unarmed.
This story from Wired (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11/what-exactly-is-a-cop-killer-gun/).

[Bman505]

Fort Hood Shooter Used 'Cop Killer' Armor-Piercing Handgun

By The Brady Campaign , To Prevent Gun Violence - November 06, 2009
http://www.opposingviews.com/article_attachments/0000/3310/handgun.JPG?1257544086
WASHINGTON --- Four and a half years ago, three police organizations in the United States issued advisories to warn officers that a new handgun introduced into the U.S. market by a Belgium manufacturer of military firearms represented a unique threat to the safety of police officers.

It was a handgun that was designed to fire bullets through body armor. A U.S. Senator and a U.S. Congressman urged a legal ban on civilian possession of the firearm, which began being referred to as the “cop killer gun.”

The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable, and was designed as a military sidearm to complement military rifles made by the same company. One law enforcement expert referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.” While no police officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers.

Today, several news sources are reporting that it was the Five-Seven that Nidal M. Hasan used in his shooting attack at Fort Hood in Texas Thursday. In January 2005, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO) and the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE), released their alert to the police community at a press conference, joined by U.S. Senator Charles Schumer and Congressman Elliott Engel of New York.

When first launched for civilian sales, company officials wrote on the company website that “enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.” That language has since been removed by FN Herstal.

In early 2005, Brady Campaign staff purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it.The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies.

[Bman505]

The question is, should these guns be made available for purchase? I have talked to several Police Officers and they are all very aware of these new firearms. The concept and design of this firearm is really good. I feel though it should not be available to the public for the sole reason of its capability of peircing armor, Kevlar® helmets and vests, and CRISAT. "The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest."

What do you guys think?

[sinclair]

What do you guys think?

Having "run the numbers" for this in the Self Defense Guide, the ammunition matches the ballistics of the 22 rim fire magnum, except that this is sort of a mini 223 round and is centerfire. The design goal was a cartridge that can defeat body armor without the over-penetration concern of using the 5.56 NATO (223) round. The armor piercing cartridges supposedly can only be sold to military and police agencies. It is unlikely that the Ft Hood shooter had access to the specialty ammo. However, the ammo can likely be duplicated by reloaders, and in an unusual way. There are a group of shooters out there who "play" with the 22 rimfire magnum. They tend to experiment with carefully changing bullets and powder in the rim fire magnums using modifications to reloading equipment. It would be relatively simple to use the "penetrator" five seven bullet loaded into a 22 rimfire magnum and get the same results. Except that you would be shooting this in a 22 rimfire magnum pistol instead of the FiveseveN pistol.

The "cop killer" bullets referred to are in two types. Any high velocity rifle round will penetrate most body armor. AP bullet design and lower velocity will do the same. It is the AP bullet designs that are supposed to be unavailable to the public. But get the velocity high enough, and ANY bullet design becomes a penetrator.

Be careful what you suggest should be banned. Low velocity AP designs are ALREADY banned. Are you suggesting that we ban ANY penetrator, cause that includes most any rifle caliber in the above 3000 fps range ?

And finally, what constitutes "body armor" ? There are a few classes of such. Steel plate reinforced body armor is the heaviest class and does stop high velocity rounds, but it is not commonly used due to excess bulk and weight.

[Bman505]

I am not necessarily saying ban them, just don't think they should be available to everyone.

[sinclair]

I am not necessarily saying ban them, just don't think they should be available to everyone.

We may not be on the same page yet. Are you referring to the gun, or the ammo, or the restricted use ammo ?

Both the gun and ammo are imported from Belgium, I think, so availability is at the whims of the gun import laws.

The consumer available 5.7 ammunition is actually quite pathetic as penetration goes. What makes the caliber, NOT THE GUN, capable is the AP design bullets and hot loads, which are already prohibited for ANY but law enforcement or military.

Note that this is another caliber that is not named for its actual measurement. The 5.7 mm is not that large. It is more correctly the 5.57mm and is a 22 caliber bullet. It is designed to shoot a 40 grain bullet at approximately the same velocities from similar barrel lengths as the 22 WMR, which is also designed for a 40 grain 22 caliber bullet of the same diameter.

As a reloader, the cartridge does not interest me since it is difficult to reload without damaging it (like the little 25 auto) and the shoulder gets blown out so much that those who reload it report only a couple of reloads before the brass is overworked and splits.

I could care less about the gun. 22 WMR guns are far cheaper and I can do everything with the 22 WMR that the 5.7 can do.

What really worries me is the public buying in to the hype that somehow this is a deadly cop killer. Its a 22 Magnum duplicate. Oh good grief Charlie Brown !

This guy (Ft Hood shooter), by the reports I saw yesterday, was also carrying a 357 Magnum revolver. Be very glad he was not using that. More of the wounded would be dead, I believe, if that were the case.

[Scooter]

I have to agree with Sinclair, the guns aren't the issue, nor is the ammo. The concept of an AP round from a pistol is nothing new. I own a CZ-52 which is chambered in 7.62 x 25r. This pistol was originally put to use as a Czech service pistol, manufactured from 1953 - 1955. This round too is capable of AP properties in factory loads. The ammo is still available as surplus, and due to the age of the weapon can be purchased with a Curios & Relics liscense. But no attempts have been made to ban this weapon or caliber and it has been available for more than 50 years. This appears to be the anti gun lobby trying to scare the uneducated public to their side of the cause. Once we establish that line, their is no turning back. It's as Sinclair pointed out that any high velocity round will penetrate armor. If we cross this line, where will it stop?

[Jizzle]

Look, I've worked with cops on base and their body armor isn't rated to stop anything over a 9mm. It says so right on the inside of the vest. So if that's a typical example of police body armor then pretty much anything that starts with a 4 or higher would be outlawed by this idea that we should ban anything that can penetrate body armor.

I took my 200gr 1400fps FMJ loads out to dry canyon with an old kevlar vest (the kind with the really heavy plates that they issue you in korea) and tested it out with home made ballistic gel (you can google the recipe and it works decently). Anyway longer story short. The 10mm penetrated the kevlar and put a big enough dent in the lead that it broke the 2x4 that the ballistic gel was shaped around. Thats enough for me. And this is just an autoloader. Imagine a .44 mag loaded up the right way or a 454 cassull.

Bman with the idea that no one should have this weapon you are opening the door for them to ban your beloved .40 on the same grounds. Do you like that idea?

[Colt 45]

This is what the gun lobby always tries to do. Take the blame away from the shooter and vilify the gun and/or ammunition. Labeling any gun a "cop killer" equates to the gun having a life of it's own and the power to go out and start killing without the help of a human finger to pull the trigger. The crime was committed by the shooter, not the gun.

Max

I am not necessarily saying ban them, just don't think they should be available to everyone.

[sinclair]

I keep trying to put this stuff in perspective. I think it is worse than any of you are seeing.
If the anti gun lobby gets away with banning a 22 caliber as a cop killer,
everything else is gone. Maybe even BB guns. Lets try this:

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/gallery/data/500/medium/compare22.JPG

Note that the first one is rim-fire ammo. The second one is not commercial 5.7 ammo but shown with
an overweight 50 grain spitzer usually loaded in Nato 5.56 ammo. You can sorta do that with 22 WMR
but need to be very careful with such experimentation.

[Grampa]

I'm siding with everyone else on this one Bman. When they start banning based on some political view of potential lethality there is no turning back and we're all going to get screwed. Remember, Ted Kennedy wanted to ban most deer ammo.

[Jizzle]

handguns are defensive weapons. and if you need it to penetrate a vest to defend yourself against someone wearing one so be it. you can't restrict the availability of this. police officers should not have access to any other weapons that the populace doens't. they are civilians just like everybody else.

[Luvs2Play]

The brady bunch and the scare media call every gun used in a crime either a cop killer or assult weapon, The gun is just a tool, it should not be banned, the people that use them wrong are the ones that should be dealt with properly. Jizzle is right, why should cops be the only ones to get certain weapons? Should the government have that much more power over the population? I don't care what the news maniacs say, the majority of the people are not dangerous criminals.

Excuse me, I have to go jump in my F-16 and head to work.

[rtuck77]

we dont blame cars for accidents why do we blame guns for shooting

[Jizzle]

we dont blame cars for accidents why do we blame guns for shooting

IE then why not ban cars that can break the speed limit. There is no right in place that says we are allowed to go 100 MPH no matter how fun it is. Check out the CDC numbers for gun related deaths vs vehicular accidents/homicide.. It's an eye opener.

[Bman505]

I get the point, the way the article reads and the things I have heard from police officers are not the greatest things. I do most defiantly get your point on this matter. Thank you all for the ass whoopin!:D

[Colt 45]

Thanks Bman, we wouldn't want to have to get tough with you! :D

Max

I get the point, the way the article reads and the things I have heard from police officers are not the greatest things. I do most defiantly get your point on this matter. Thank you all for the ass whoopin!:D

[Jizzle]

don't worry bman no one here was going to resort to a full out curbing. :)

sorry if we got a little rough. my bad.

[Packing247]

I own one of these firearms. I had to have one when Ted Kennedy was waiving it around on the senate floor calling it a "cop killer".

The SS 191 round is classified by the BATF as AP. That round is banned for civilian purchase.

The SS 192 round (I carry this round) is the SD round and is HP. It travels at 2100fps and will expand to over .50cal upon soft tissue impact (my own wet phone book test). The BATF does not classify the SS192 as AP and is free for purchase (if you got the $$ and you can find it)

The SS 197 is a much slower cartridge, and is more available to the public.

This is a great handgun. It is very well compensated, recoil is very smooth, and target reacquisition is very quick! You can carry 20+1 rounds and only weigh in at about 20oz. It is like shooting a AR in your hand!!!

The only bad part is the price of ammo, and that it is very hard to conceal.

Check out www.fivesevenforum.com where i am a member.

[Bman505]

Good info. Thank you for the classification on the types of ammo. I can't beleive the weight. 20oz loaded? That is crazy.

[Colt 45]

Yeah, sounds like a "horse" pistol!

Max

Good info. Thank you for the classification on the types of ammo. I can't beleive the weight. 20oz loaded? That is crazy.

[Darwin88310]

I'll stick with my XD's and 1911's and 10mm's and...

[Sam]

"Cop Killer" is nothing but a buzz word when applied to a firearm or ammunition. Cop Killer is a person that kills cops.

Hardware is easy to blame because it is inanimate and no one will think you to be cold or uncaring. People are hard to blame when your brain is full of bovine feces and refuse to be responsible for yourself let alone pay the price for stupidity. That's why folks like HCI and the like do what they do (besides that they don't have to do real work and earn a living, they can con cash from sheep).

The 5.7 is not particularly easy to use or carry, it's round is not particularly profound in effect. It the old 5.7 Johnson Spitfire, shortened and detuned.
Really bright folks would dig up an old Grendel P-30 and have 30 rounds available.

Ban it, no. I would be much more inclined to ban people that can't tell a hardware problem from a people problem