Clip Question?

[Bman505]

How many of you keep a clip full at all times? I always have a clip in and one on standby. But my question is, will this mess up the spring in the clip and cause loading problems down the road?

[OM44]

Sorry, Bman, but I believe your are referring to "Magazines." Clips were used
by M-1 Garands and have no springs in them.

Don't worry about springs wearing out. They wear out by being flexed, not
setting under tension.

[jlsalc]

I've also had to break the habit of calling "magazines" clips. My son has done a good job of correcting me numerous times.

I have every magazine I own loaded. Just prior to getting my CCW I sold a Ruger P90dc. The magazines were loaded for over 10 years. When I purchased the weapon it was used. I never had a problem firing it. As a matter of fact I completely trusted this handgun. I never had a failure. I ran 1000's or rounds through it. The only reason it is gone is because I could not imagine concealing this 10 lb piece of iron.

I better correct myself before my son (Sal) does. One time after cleaning I assembled the P90dc with the spring on the guide backwards. It jammed once. I pulled it apart assembled correctly. It performed flawlessly every other time.

[MrReady]

I keep four loaded mags. One in the firearm, another on my body.
The other two in the car or at home. When I unload the Hollow Points
and load the FMJ's at the range they work fine.

[Colt 45]

I carry 2 loaded magazines usually, but have many more loaded up at all times. I have read in many places as this is a common question on gun forums, and the consensus is that the springs in the magazines these days are much higher quality than they used to be, and it doesn't necessarily weaken them when they are loaded.

Max

[Bman505]

I knew that. What was I thinking. Clips! Ha. My excuss is that it was early in the morning! I usually always keep two to three clips loaded but the guy at the Gun Shop said this was a bad idea. Just wondered what all the pros think!

[Jizzle]

I keep one mag in the weapon with me and one mag at home in the night stand.

I won't be going into a gun fight looking to stay and shoot but, to shoot and remove myself from the situation, IE get the hell out of dodge. 15 rounds should be good.

[sinclair]

How many of you keep a clip full at all times?

With all due respect to Jlsalc's comments, I know what you meant and am not usually a purist about terminology. This is one case where the terminology is important for proper understanding. So using the proper terminology, I do keep clips fully loaded, since doing so does not result in adverse clip behaviour. See illustration below:

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/gallery/data/500/clipsandmags.JPG

I do NOT keep magazines fully loaded. I will try explaining with the short story. The magazine design most common uses a spring for mechanical energy storage. The spring itself is subject to the phenomena known as Hysteresis. In plain language, this means it is a device which will suffer energy delay/loss over time. The degree of energy loss depends on the extremes of flexation, and the temperature of the material. Fully loaded, leave it in the hot sun, and the energy stored in the spring will no longer fully release. Fully loaded over a long time and the same thing is true.

The amount of loss reflected in a hysteresis loop may or may not be great enough to cause the magazine to no longer function on the last round or so. It also becomes more suseptible to friction due to dust or burrs in the magazine.

Whether or not you see this type of failure in a magazine would depend on how close to maximum spring deflection the loaded magazine is stored in. The closer to maximum deflection you are, the closer you are to a permanent set in the spring material.

Reference:

What is Hysteresis ?

http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/sethna/hysteresis/WhatIsHysteresis.html

What is "permanent set" ?

http://www.engineersedge.com/spring_terms.htm

Permanent set
A material that is deflected so far that its elastic properties have been exceeded and it does not return to its original condition upon release of load is said to have taken a "permanent set".

[Packing247]

Don't worry about springs wearing out. They wear out by being flexed, not setting under tension.

^what he said^

[sinclair]

Don't worry about springs wearing out. They wear out by being flexed, not setting under tension

We are not on the same page. You are correct, springs wear out by being flexed and they do not set under tension. They set under compression. Hysteresis affects all springs, new or old and has not much to do with wearing out.

I am addressing the mechanical hysteresis loop of the spring, whether it is worn out or not may change the loop but it is always there. It is a physical property of the material.

[Colt 45]

Just to clarify, I don't CARRY two magazines -- usually, even though that is what I said. I generally have one in the car or nearby. Since my EDC is either 9 + 1 or 7 +1 I don't feel the need to always carry a spare magazine. Heck, when I first started carrying I could only load 5 (Colt 45). Besides, they are so heavy!

It depends on where I am though. My son, who lives in Tulsa, OK was living in a area where violent encounters are fairly common. The week before we came to visit, there was an invasion in the apartment behind where he lives and the person who lived there was stabbed to death. Just a few days after, there was a fight outside his apartment where there was a lot of blood spilled. I saw it. I didn't take any chances there. At my urging, i.e. begging, he has now moved to a much nicer area.

I do feel that we should stay away from known danger areas, but sometimes you just can't. Well I guess you can, but it isn't easy.

Max

[Colt 45]

I don't know why, but calling magazines "clips" has always bothered me. It's like calling an engine a "motor". But I'm sure there are things that I do that annoy people too. Maybe not...;)

Max

[Packing247]

Springs do not retain a compressed "memory". It is the tensile strength of the metal that is compromised by being continuously worked. Kinda like bending a paper clip back and forth until it breaks.

If any compromise is to happen...it probably wont be in your lifetime. When you "will" your guns over to your childeren...put a condition in that says they HAVE to replace all the mag springs....and deduct the cost from their inheritance! Problem solved!

[Colt 45]

Not to nit pic, but "tensile" strength is resistance to being pulled apart isn't it? I think what we are talking about is a stress fracture.

Max

[Packing247]

Not to nit pic, but "tensile" strength is resistance to being pulled apart isn't it? I think what we are talking about is a stress fracture.

Max

LOL! Ok!!!! you are correct..but its relative. Without going into a bunch of engineering mombo jumbo, tensile strength is a measurement used to determine how certain metals will perform under different applications. The purpose is to predict the fatigue point and the elastic limit of the devise (ie spring).

We "expand" metal to test its strength like we "compress" concrete to test its strength.

[sinclair]

We "expand" metal to test its strength like we "compress" concrete to test its strength.

He, he. I am not going to go there. I will be nice.

Springs do not retain a compressed "memory".

Under compression, they are retaining potential energy. In a perfect universe for physics, that energy will all be released after storage. Our universe is not perfect for physics (entropy loss). Not all of it is recovered. The energy lost had to go somewhere. I am saying that some of it can go into what some would call setting of the compressed spring. Here is an experiment for you.

Take a large capacity magazine, for this experiment, and to duplicate my results, use a Cobray 32 round magazine, 9 mm. Take it apart and measure the length of the spring. Load it up near capacity for maximum spring compression. I loaded it to 28 rounds rather than the full 32. Leave it that way for a while. (I left mine for about a year). Then take it apart. Measure the spring again. Surprise !

How much change in length do you see? Surprise again. This change can be calculated, because it is a property of the material. That is, if the difference is treated as a hysteresis loop, it can be calculated.

I did this because I had problems with full load storage of certain magazines. The experiment is easy to reproduce. What convinced me may also convince you. Or not.

In any event, what I started out to say in here is that I do NOT store magazines in a fully loaded condition. I have good reason (and experimental data) to believe that a partially loaded magazine, (somewhere around 75 percent) will not risk a permanent change to the storage ability of the spring.

If any compromise is to happen...it probably wont be in your lifetime.

That is correct. I have done what I find necessary to correct my magazine problems. I made an attempt to share the reasoning behind it. Plant a seed. Sometimes it grows, and sometimes it don't.

I will leave the fertilization part up to you.

[Packing247]

(what you said)

ugg...Im sitting here having a beer or two..and you are forcing me to think + type....ok!

I will concede to ALL your points and observations.

Hysteresis is a controlled theory that is calculated into the design. It is the theory of input v. output which is not equal to one another. A spring compressed for one year will be different then a spring compressed for one day of the same material and design. By the most accurate measuring devices..it is rarely 1:1. There are other elements of the material used to determine the H factor and there is a formula that expresses that (somewhere in my text books).

Yes, there is a "weakening" of the spring (theoretically) but should still falls within the intended design standards of normal use operation over a given time period.

If one has a quality mag with a quality spring...a full time, fully loaded 24/7 mag should be of no concern.

lock and load..<one more beer then bed>:cool:

[Jizzle]

Lets put it this way, buy a glock, use glock magazines, you know it will fire when you pull the trigger. enough said.

[OM44]

I read the material you linked to. It was mainly concerned with magnetic
material, not spring steel.

This discussion about keeping magazines loaded has been hashed and
rehashed many times over. The majority of educated opinion has always been
that it doesn't hurt to keep a magazine loaded at all times.

I'm outa' here.

[jlsalc]

With all due respect to Jlsalc's comments,

After I read all this I'm trying to figure out why you quoted Bman and then give me "due" respect. I agree with the terminology. As far as magazines being kept loaded or unloaded I only gave my experience.

[Bman505]

When I carry my Keltec PF9 with the clip, I do not have a round in the chamber.

[Packing247]

When I carry my Keltec PF9 with the clip, I do not have a round in the chamber.

...and also in your car, you have a spare tire without air. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Bman505]

...and also in your car, you have a spare tire without air. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread. This is the one I was referring to. But yes, I am referring to the side clip that mounts to the side of the firearm where the trigger is exposed. I do not feel safe with a round in the chamber.

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3960#post3960

[sinclair]

After I read all this I'm trying to figure out why you quoted Bman and then give me "due" respect. I agree with the terminology. As far as magazines being kept loaded or unloaded I only gave my experience.

That is an easy one to answer. I respect those who seek accuracy in terminology. I also recognize that in any specific topic area, such as the gun world, that it is easy to jump on someone who makes what can be perceived as a terminology "blunder". It can have bad results, so I try to avoid doing that, and to help mitigate circumstances which may be perceived that way. You just never know how your post will be received, or whether or not it will "miff" someone out there.

I read the material you linked to. It was mainly concerned with magnetic material, not spring steel.

Probably because that is where the phenomena is best understood. How many links would you want? Kudos for reading it BTW. Most of the really good links are pay to play. Like this one on leaf springs:

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/912715

A simple boolean search for "hysteresis + springs" will give this result:

"Results 1 - 10 of about 343,000 for hysteresis + springs"

The majority of educated opinion has always been that it doesn't hurt to keep a magazine loaded at all times.

I am not trying to attack you in any way. My apology if you think so. Just what the heck is "educated opinion" ?

This thread began with a question that has applicable engineering principles associated for investigating the problem. I have outlined those and have also proposed an experiment that can be reproduced by anyone here to verify my own results. We are no longer in the realm of "opinion". Even if the opinion is "educated", it does not refute experimental data. The challenge now is to define another experiment to show that mine was either a special instance or otherwise does not correctly address the problem. I would be glad to help with that. Proving yourself wrong is how real science gets done.

Meanwhile, I no longer store magazines fully loaded due to the initial experimental results, despite educated opinion.

[Colt 45]

Well I'm going to just keep buying more clips, er, magazines...;)

Max

[sinclair]

I do not feel safe with a round in the chamber.

Sorry I just interrupted this other conversation, which I agree with. One way to get over that feeling is to carry a revolver for a while, one with a firing pin/trigger block safety (Ruger). Then move to a 1911, cocked and locked. That one I have never got passed. So to carry an automatic with a round in the chamber, I compromised on a double action auto that has a safety block that must be switched to allow the first round fired in double action mode.

[Bman505]

Sorry I just interrupted this other conversation, which I agree with. One way to get over that feeling is to carry a revolver for a while, one with a firing pin/trigger block safety (Ruger). Then move to a 1911, cocked and locked. That one I have never got passed. So to carry an automatic with a round in the chamber, I compromised on a double action auto that has a safety block that must be switched to allow the first round fired in double action mode.


I am sorry if you misunderstood me. I do have a round in the chamber when I am carrying with a holster. But, on my PF9 I carry with a side clip like this,

http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/media/duty_gear_images/glock.jpg

which leaves the trigger exposed therefore I feel more comfortable not having a round in the chamber. I am will carry the PF9 when I am wearing clothing that does not permit a belt or when I am not wearing a belt. Does this make more sense.

Also, sinclair, I must say, you crack me up:D! You are a great and very knowledgeable guy I must say.

[Colt 45]

Do you think it isn't safe to carry a revolver fully loaded that doesn't have the firing pin/trigger block safety, or are you referring to the single action-type?

Sorry I just interrupted this other conversation, which I agree with. One way to get over that feeling is to carry a revolver for a while, one with a firing pin/trigger block safety (Ruger). Then move to a 1911, cocked and locked.

So to carry an automatic with a round in the chamber, I compromised on a double action auto that has a safety block that must be switched to allow the first round fired in double action mode.

That is the way my Ruger KP345 is.

Max

[Colt 45]

But, on my PF9 I carry with a side clip like this, which leaves the trigger exposed therefore I feel more comfortable not having a round in the chamber.

I would be downright terrified to carry like that, with a round in the chamber with the trigger exposed. I wonder if anyone carries that way...

Also, sinclair, I must say, you crack me up:D! You are a great and very knowledgeable guy I must say.

I totally agree! We have some other very knowledgeable guys here too. I think we have the best of the best here...

Max

[Bman505]

I am seeing that as well colt 45

[Packing247]

Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread. This is the one I was referring to. But yes, I am referring to the side clip that mounts to the side of the firearm where the trigger is exposed. I do not feel safe with a round in the chamber.

http://www.concealcarrychat.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3960#post3960

Oh...ok! I miss understood you. Sorry for my sarcasm. Carrying a firearm in any other way then in "condition 1" is one of my pet peeves. I didn't understand that it wasn't holstered.

So i guess now I should ask...why would you want to carry that way? It is unsafe, and when you absolutely need to defend yourself, (under great stress most probably) you have to remember to rack the slide. Seems like a lose - lose to me.

[Bman505]

When I go to the range and practice, i practice the way I carry it. I draw it, rack it and fire it this way. I only use this carry style when I absolutely have to. Like when jogging, wearing shorts with no belt, ect..

[Colt 45]

Yeah sometimes even if you have to rack the slide before you can fire, is still better than not having something to defend yourself with.

Max

When I go to the range and practice, i practice the way I carry it. I draw it, rack it and fire it this way. I only use this carry style when I absolutely have to. Like when jogging, wearing shorts with no belt, ect..

[Bman505]

Yeah sometimes even if you have to rack the slide before you can fire, is still better than not having something to defend yourself with.

Max

That is exactly my thoughts.

[Luvs2Play]

But the guy coming after you has already completed that step.

I would find a way to carry with one in the hole. If you are going to carry, you need to be ready to act.

[Packing247]

But the guy coming after you has already completed that step.

I would find a way to carry with one in the hole. If you are going to carry, you need to be ready to act.

Ditto.

A good quality holster that works would solve the safety problem of a exposed trigger.

[jlsalc]

While one in the pipe is the way to go, a short second would be a weapon with a full magazine ready with a rack..

[Packing247]

There are just to many things that could go wrong carrying like this. What if while extracting your weapon, the mag release gets hit and partially ejects the mag? Now you have to go thru a "tap-rack-bang" drill. What if you have a FTF while racking? What if under stress you happen to NOT pull the slide back far enough to strip a round? What if one of your hands/arms becomes incapacitated...how then will you be able to load your weapon?....have you practiced that? What if..what if...what if?

I, myself, carry to protect myself and my loved ones. I don't want to find out all the things that can possibly go wrong when its time to react. I rather not leave things to chance. But to each his own!

[Colt 45]

(playing devil's advocate) I understand where you are coming from, but what if you had no option at all? I agree that condition one or one in the pipe is the best carry method, but if there is no other way, other than not carrying at all, I would choose to have to rack the slide.

Do they make these clips for guns that have a thumb safety?

This is a great discussion...

Max

There are just to many things that could go wrong carrying like this. What if while extracting your weapon, the mag release gets hit and partially ejects the mag? Now you have to go thru a "tap-rack-bang" drill. What if you have a FTF while racking? What if under stress you happen to NOT pull the slide back far enough to strip a round? What if one of your hands/arms becomes incapacitated...how then will you be able to load your weapon?....have you practiced that? What if..what if...what if?

I, myself, carry to protect myself and my loved ones. I don't want to find out all the things that can possibly go wrong when its time to react. I rather not leave things to chance. But to each his own!

[Luvs2Play]

If my option was to go with an empty chamber, I would change to a wheel gun.

[Colt 45]

I was thinking that as well.

Max

If my option was to go with an empty chamber, I would change to a wheel gun.

[Packing247]

Ok Max...I'll play along.

I don't understand the "if you had no option at all" statement. There are tons of options out there. You just gotta find one that works. And IMHO...a "clip" method does not work.

Don't get me wrong. I would never indicate that one should leave their firearm at home for whatever reason. But what I am saying is that your method of EDC needs to be evaluated.

I really have no knowledge on slide clips. In Ohio, they are legal to sell, buy, and posses. But if you are going to carry a firearm on your person, it better dam be in a holster or you gonna find yourself in a heap of DoDo!

(playing devil's advocate) I understand where you are coming from, but what if you had no option at all? I agree that condition one or one in the pipe is the best carry method, but if there is no other way, other than not carrying at all, I would choose to have to rack the slide.

Do they make these clips for guns that have a thumb safety?

This is a great discussion...

Max

[Jizzle]

In what hypothetical situation would a clip be feasible?

[Colt 45]

I guess what I meant by the "no option at all" statement was if you only had the one handgun -- say a Glock -- and this was your only option to carry. Granted, a person should be able regardless to find a way to carry safely. After typing this, I am realizing that this argument just isn't going to hold up.

Like I said earlier, I had considered getting one of those clips but decided it wasn't for me.

Max

Ok Max...I'll play along.

I don't understand the "if you had no option at all" statement. There are tons of options out there. You just gotta find one that works. And IMHO...a "clip" method does not work.

Don't get me wrong. I would never indicate that one should leave their firearm at home for whatever reason. But what I am saying is that your method of EDC needs to be evaluated.

I really have no knowledge on slide clips. In Ohio, they are legal to sell, buy, and posses. But if you are going to carry a firearm on your person, it better dam be in a holster or you gonna find yourself in a heap of DoDo!

[Jizzle]

it's better not to carry than to carry irresponsibly.

[Bman505]

So are you saying that carrying a firearm with a clip on it for situations where a holster is not feasible is irresponsible? And not a round in the chamber? This is worse than not carrying at all? Please explain.

[Jizzle]

i said carrying irresponsibly is worse than not carrying. please don't put words in my mouth.

carrying with one in the chamber with a clip is irresponsible. there are alternatives.

carrying without one in the chamber with a clip is not irresponsible. but, it puts you in danger. your weapon without a round in the chamber is no more good than a weird shaped rock.

and you say you use it for jogging? why not a fanny pack then? I have seen the clips and even jogging i would not use it. weapon retention/saftey isn't something that you chose the 10 dollar option over the 20 dollar option if the 20 is that much better. you don't skimp on this type of thing.

and ya the fanny pack may not look cool but, everyone here has modified their wardrobe somewhat some way to accomodate their carrying. and for jogging i'd suggest you go that route or some other alternative. there are also some very nice secure shoulder rigs that won't bang against your ribs while running. or how about a belly band? there are other options that make more sense than a clip.

but this is just my opinion, educated or uneducated as it might be.

[Luvs2Play]

If I got my fat arse out jogging, I wouldn't have the energy to draw anyway!

I also have never seen a clip other than in a catalog, I don't know if I would be able to trust one myself. I'm sure they work, I just feel safer having my gun in a holster.

Not having one in the hole is not unsafe, since you are keeping aware of what's around you. I just feel that it may put you at a huge disadvantage should something pop out of the bushes. The best that could happen is you could get it out in time to stop a threat before a charge, giving you time to rack.

Are you comfortable with carrying that way? It makes me wonder since you started a thread about it. If you are comfortable, go ahead. The worst thing you can do is not have confidence in your carry, both sides will be able to tell should something happens.

[Bman505]

I am much more comfortable knowing I have a firearm on me than none at all. Am I as comfortable with it as my XD w/ my DM Bullard, NO. I carry my PF9 very minimal. I either carry it in a Desantis pocket holster or using the clip on my shorts. Like I said, when using the clip, I do not have a round in the chamber. To help with my confidence, when I go to the range, I practice fast draw and rack exercises to help with that. I really like the PF9, it is a great gun. It is kinda like my backup gun. You know what I mean?

[Packing247]

I carry my PF9 very minimal. I either carry it in a Desantis pocket holster or using the clip on my shorts. Like I said, when using the clip, I do not have a round in the chamber.

I wouldn't worry too much with clip carrying a PF9 (or LCP etc) with one in the hole. It is a DOA pistol with a long heavy trigger pull.

I was thinking (ut-oh :cool:). What about a 1911 style pistol. Would anyone have a problem carrying one fully loaded, but have the hammer down? That way all you would have to do is cock the hammer when needed. You can easily go to condition 1 with only one hand.

[Jizzle]

how secure is a clip? i can't imagin it's all that secure being that you have to remove it with the gun when drawing.

[Bman505]

It's not bad, I will show you next time we go to the range. It is pretty handy on a smaller firearm like the PF9.

[Scooter]

carrying without one in the chamber with a clip is not irresponsible. but, it puts you in danger. your weapon without a round in the chamber is no more good than a weird shaped rock.

But you cant rack the slide on a rock and fire.

I am much more comfortable knowing I have a firearm on me than none at all.

I understand completly. I have a 25 ACP I carry in many similar situations. Not the most powerful, and only good to about 20 ft. But most altercation happen inside of 10 ft, and if I have to pump all 7 rounds into the BG instead of 2 (1 is never enough in my opinion) from my 45, it's still better than a funny shaped rock.

I wouldn't worry too much with clip carrying a PF9 (or LCP etc) with one in the hole. It is a DOA pistol with a long heavy trigger pull.

I'm with Packing247 on this, I wouldn't worry too much. I know someone else who carries a PF9 with the clip for his daily jog and he keeps one in the pipe. I think the biggest thing is to know the weapon and know its limitations, as well as your own.

You seem to have put thought into this choice of carry, and practice with it which is as important as anything

[Jizzle]

But you cant rack the slide on a rock and fire.



I understand completly. I have a 25 ACP I carry in many similar situations. Not the most powerful, and only good to about 20 ft. But most altercation happen inside of 10 ft, and if I have to pump all 7 rounds into the BG instead of 2 (1 is never enough in my opinion) from my 45, it's still better than a funny shaped rock.



I'm with Packing247 on this, I wouldn't worry too much. I know someone else who carries a PF9 with the clip for his daily jog and he keeps one in the pipe. I think the biggest thing is to know the weapon and know its limitations, as well as your own.

You seem to have put thought into this choice of carry, and practice with it which is as important as anything

Racking and firing isn't realistic in an SD situation especially if you are going to have to draw it from cover. It's not a bad idea when you are at home to keep one out of the pipe IE if you have childeren et. But, carrying it that way isn't ideal. There are alternatives to the clip as I posted before that solve your problems IE jogging et.

[Scooter]

Racking and firing isn't realistic in an SD situation especially if you are going to have to draw it from cover. It's not a bad idea when you are at home to keep one out of the pipe IE if you have childeren et. But, carrying it that way isn't ideal. There are alternatives to the clip as I posted before that solve your problems IE jogging et.

So having to rack a round into the chamber at home is acceptable if you have children, but when out jogging having to do so is unacceptable. I don't get that, but sure. Yes there are alternatives, but what is to say that the method he is using is unacceptable? And if you read the rest of my post, I did state that I believed he would be alreight carrying one in the pipe as 247 also stated.

But arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics...:D

[Jizzle]

lol "think about the childeren". you are just being contrary at this point.

[Jizzle]

protect your weapon, protect yourself, protect your trigger.

if you're comfortable carrying without on in the pipe then fine.

i think you are underestimating how much time it takes to lift your shirt pull it, rack it and fire it accurately.

as far as using a clip with one in the pipe that's an accident waiting to happen. The double action long heavy pull is fine and dandy, but wasn't it you bman that was saying you dont' like glocks because of the lack of safety features?

[Bman505]

Correct, This is the only firearm I own that does not contain any safety features. This is why I seldom carry the PF9. But, I would think you would agree that the Glock is better quality than the Keltec. I am more concerned that with one in the pipe and the gun falling to the ground a being discharged than pulling the trigger accidental.

[Packing247]

I am more concerned that with one in the pipe and the gun falling to the ground a being discharged than pulling the trigger accidental.

All Glocks are DAO. You have to physically "pull the trigger" in order for it to fire.

[Bman505]

I am aware of Glock an Keltec. The Keltec is noy DAO.

[Packing247]

I am aware of Glock an Keltec. The Keltec is noy DAO.

Huh? The Kel-tec PF9 is not DAO?

[Jizzle]

the keltec is double action is it not?

[Bman505]

I apologize, You are correct. It is a double action. I guess I was thinking more in the lines of a firing pin block I think it is? Ya,

n firearms, a safety or safety catch is a mechanism used to help prevent the accidental discharge of a firearm, helping to ensure safer handling.

Safeties can generally be divided into subtypes such as internal safeties (which typically do not receive input from the user) and external safeties (which typically allow the user to give input, for example, toggling a lever from "on" to "off" or something similar). Sometimes these are called "passive" and "active" safeties (or "automatic" and "manual"), respectively.

Firearms with the ability to allow the user to select various fire modes may have separate switches for safety and for mode selection (e.g. M1 Thompson) or may have the safety integrated with the mode selector as a fire selector with positions from safe to semi-automatic to full-automatic fire (e.g. M16).

Some firearms manufactured after the late 1990s include mandatory integral locking mechanisms that must be deactivated by a unique key before the gun can be fired. These integral locking mechanisms are intended as child-safety devices during unattended storage of the firearm—not as safety mechanisms while carrying. Other devices in this category are trigger locks, bore locks, and gun safes.

This is what I thought you where talking about.

[Sam]

Clips were used
by M-1 Garands and have no springs in them.

This one is sort of funny really.
The clip for an M-1 IS A SPRING. A compound leaf spring, and clips loaded 50 years ago are functioning just fine.

Sam

[calvin]

Quality mag. springs form Brownells $7.95.Stock up.

[rtuck77]

try leaveing a mag fully loaded for a couple of months and then unload them for about half or the same amount of time, and see how that works for you guys. I do that and the spring stays within a close measurement of what it was when new. now understand that it is not something you wont to do every every month cause that would be like repeted loading and unloading, I do it about every 3 months or so and it has not affected my mags at all.

[Descreet38]

In December 1999 I had a uncle pass on to the great gun area in the sky. My aunt contacted me and let me know that his wishes were for his gun collection to go to me. I traveled back to Washington state in February 2000 and was amazed at what I found.

He had a Browning Platinum safe that no one had the combination for along with about 4000 or so rounds of ammo in many calibers. After spending a week with the family abd with the help of a couple of neighbors we just loaded the safe into the back of my pickup, covered it to keep the elementa away and off to Minnesota I went.

When i got it home I had movers come in and and it relocated to the basement gun room. I finally got around to having a friend of a friend who is a licensed locksmith come in and open the safe and reset the combination. He did it in about 10 minutes and - wow. I did an inventory and one of the pistols in the safe was a Luger in 9mm he brought back from WWII. He had a tag on it and it gave all of the information of the where and when he got it. There were two magazines that still had the original German ammo that was in the pistol when he took it off a dead German Colonel.

I had all of the guns inspected by a gunsmith before firing them and used one of the mags to run 6 of my mid level reloads through, The magazine performed perfectly.

While I have no definite proof - based on the way it was all packaged in the safe that this gun and mag had been loaded since 1945 when he brought it home.

Pretty much convinces me that storing a magazine full over a long time doesn't do much damage.

Also consider that LEO's maintain full magazines at all times and usually only shoot up the duty ammo during their semi annual qualification. All of the other time the magazines are loaded to maximum and carried daily.

Every pistol I have - even when stored is fully loaded to include one in the chamber and I have only experienced one bad spring in over 40 years of being around guns.

I must admit that if I buy a used gun, depending on the age and wear I usually replace the mainspring and mag springs so I have a starting point from day one.

On my daily carry guns I replace the springs every two years or 50,000 rounds but this is because I shoot them almost daily. I generally have 5 - 10 mags I use for practice and other mags for daily carry.

Most people do not shoot a pistol enough to exercise a mag spring enough to wear them out.

[Bman505]

Two years or 50,000 rounds!!!! That is a lot of shooting. It must be nice. If you get around to it, I would like to see some pictures of that Luger.

[blkdragon1212]

I agree with Sinclar, however after much conversation with Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Glock we have taken to leaving our mags loaded all the way. On a side note, I always carry two on my belt, and the one in the gun w/one in the pipe.

Once every three months I break them down, I remove the base plate and examine the distance the spring sticks out of the mag. If the distance is less than one third, I stretch it to a length where the spring sticks out about one third the length of the magazine.

One unrelated note, wipe the inside of the mag with a dry cloth, do not use lubrication as it will only attract dust/dirt. I wipe the dust off the springs, and return them to the mags. The followers require the most attention, as they attract grit that can cause them to create greater friction on the sides of the mags. They are often the real reason that magazines fail to feed.

According to the manufacturers, these springs are not the same material used as recently as ten years ago. Like Sinclar stated, they set under compression, but they are designed to get the job done even when abused.

For those of you using circa 1970-80's Smith & Wesson mod. 59/39 pay close attention to the way you replace the springs in the magazines after cleaning. They have to go in the way they came out, they have an interesting way of failing to feed when in backwards due to the design of the springs which position the loaded round in the right position for the loading ramp.