A Move To Ban The "Cop-Killer"

[Colt 45]

Gun Violence Prevention Organizations Call On President Obama To Use Executive Authority To Ban Import of Armor-Piercing Pistol Used In Fort Hood Attack (http://www.gunguys.com/?p=3530)

For Immediate Release: Thursday, November 19, 2009

Contacts: Scott Vogel, Freedom States Alliance, 312-243-8980, scott@freedomstatesalliance.org

Mandy Wimmer, Violence Policy Center, 202-822-8200 x110, mwimmer@vpc.org;

Peter Hamm, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, 202-898-0792, phamm@bradymail.org

Washington, DC—In a letter sent today to the White House, America’s six national gun violence prevention (GVP) organizations--the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Violence Policy Center, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Freedom States Alliance, Legal Community Against Violence, and States United to Prevent Gun Violence--as well as 21 state and regional GVP groups strongly urged President Barack Obama to use his executive powers to ban the import into the U.S. of the FN Herstal Five-seveN armor-piercing semiautomatic pistol.

[See [1] http://www.vpc.org/obamaletter.pdf for a copy of the letter.]

A Five-seveN was used in the Fort Hood attack earlier this month that left 13 dead and 34 wounded. The Belgian-made weapon, widely available on the U.S. civilian market, is also a favorite of Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTOs), who refer to it as the “mata policia,” or “cop killer.”

In the letter, the 27 organizations state:

“While we urge you to join us in pushing for other much-needed policy changes to help reduce America's epidemic of gun violence that were also relevant to the Fort Hood shooting, such as gaps in the federal background check system that allow suspected terrorists to legally buy guns and the ready availability of high-capacity magazines (including the 20-round magazines used by the Fort Hood shooter), preventing the importation of any more Five-seveN handguns is an important step that can be accomplished immediately through administrative action by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)--without the need for any action by Congress.

“Under longstanding federal law, ATF has the clear authority to prohibit the importation of any firearm or ammunition unless it is ‘generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.’ This provision of the 1968 Gun Control Act has historically been used to exclude from import many non-sporting firearms, including so-called ‘Saturday Night Special’ handguns, ‘Street Sweeper’ shotguns, and many foreign-made assault weapons. The FN Five-seveN handgun is clearly the type of firearm to which Congress intended the import restrictions to apply.”

The letter details the fact that despite a voluntary agreement between FN Herstal and ATF to restrict the civilian sale of potentially armor-piercing ammunition for the pistol, “a quick search of the Internet identifies several sources for supposedly banned ammunition.”

Noting that when “the Five-SeveN’s availability is combined with the easy accessibility of complementary armor-piercing ammunition it becomes not only a direct threat to law enforcement, but a potential national security threat as well,” the organizations urge that the President “act today to prohibit the importation of the FN Five-seveN handgun as well as any 5.7X28mm ammunition that has armor-piercing capabilities….”

--END--

[NMDawg]

Again anti-gunners not realizing that it is not the gun but the person that is using the gun that is at fault. Maybe someone should have spoken up and said Hey! This guy is nuts! What if the Ft. Hood psycho used a baseball bat would America's favorite past time be banned? I am afraid that if this one gun is banned that it will lead to others being banned. We have to fight the slow erosion of our Constitutional and God given rights. A little here, a little there and before you know it, they are gone. Besides, I feel it will just spur the black market even more.

[Sam]

Anti gunners do not care if it is the gun or the shooter.
They care about power and keeping it from you.

To be truthful the 5.7 is a joke. It has little to offer.

As for the FedGov banning anything, I suggest that you take a quick read at this;
http://billstclair.com/blog/stories/handgun.html

All you need is one gun and one round.

One gun and one round are your ticket to liberty.
Set aside that much, or learn to make that much and you need never be a slave, so there are no worries about FedGov action to disarm you. The weapon is between your ears, not in your hand.

Now since there are no worries about being disarmed, get off the sofa and get busy reminding the legislator of your choice that he is your employee. That is the best way to keep what you have and
never have to resort to your guns.

Sam

[rtuck77]

thanks SAM you said what we all should bbe saying

[Packing247]

To be truthful the 5.7 is a joke. It has little to offer.

I disagree!

And besides, even if you think "its a joke" and "has little to offer", do think that if a ban does come down on it.....its OK because of the above?

[Sam]

do think that if a ban does come down on it.....its OK because of the above?

Nope, doesn't make a bit of difference either way.

Sam

[Luvs2Play]

I guess I don't understand why it is a joke. I don't have one, would someday like to. Please explain to me why it is a joke. If it is just a personal preference, I understand that as I don't like a lot of things I have never had. For me I do not feel it would be a practical gun, but it's one of those things I want to have. My feelings are that there are no guns that are jokes, but there are a lot of them that are not safe or practical.

[NMDawg]

Sam,

That was a very good read. Talking to the owners of a local gun shop one day and the subject of forced confiscation of guns came up. They said they had already posed that question to some local law enforcement officers that do regular business there. Their response was, I won't do it, we (law enforcement) are out numbered.

Thanks again for the read. I have passed it on.

[Sam]

do think that if a ban does come down on it.....its OK because of the above?
Nope, doesn't make a bit of difference either way. Bans are not a problem, they are a symptom. You missed soemthing in the linked article.
The 5.7 is an Iceberg. Well the boat is sinking, and you have a couple of choices, adjust your deck chair for a better view of the iceberg, or you can weep because as it gets farther south in this rotten world effected by global warming it will melt and a thing showing the singular and wondrous beauty of nature will die, or you can bail. Your call.

Sorry if my personal opinion of the 5.7 offends thee Packing247.
I can't bring myself to buy a 20 shot 22 pistol, no matter the hype.
I prefer something a bit more substantial in heft, smaller in size, making a bigger hole in a more accurate, shootable and concealable package. Praise it if you will, for me its a joke. If it makes you comfy, go for it.



Sam

[Colt 45]

That's what they say, but it has happened. Katrina is an example.

Max

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

Sam,

That was a very good read. Talking to the owners of a local gun shop one day and the subject of forced confiscation of guns came up. They said they had already posed that question to some local law enforcement officers that do regular business there. Their response was, I won't do it, we (law enforcement) are out numbered.

Thanks again for the read. I have passed it on.

[Sam]

Colt,
New Orleans is a typical sheep pen.
If the people had even started to think like citizens instead of sheep, much different outcome.
I have had the discussion with several local LEO's.
Plenty of the younger ones are all for doing a door to door.

As I explain the issue and the citizen's solution, they initially get very hostile and in a couple of cases threatening. when they turn to the 'old hand' sitting next to them for some moral support, they just get a toothy grin.
If they age, they'll learn, if not, stupidity has a certain price. A price that they will be the ones to pay.
Do not expect that complacent attitude to exist much longer.
I had that discussion with Darren White, the Bernalillo county Sheriff after he came back from New Orleans, stomping around with his M4/203 for the cameras. He is now properly respectful of the citizens. Write him and ask what he thinks will happen.
Personally I work real hard at a couple of programs that aim to keep that final option from happening. That is my aim, to make sure the day does NOT come.

I'll also tell you right now that if our local cops ever get as corrupt as the ones in New Orleans, they won't have to try confiscation. I'm pretty sure they'll get educated real fast.
Sam

[Jizzle]

Ignorance is bliss but at the cost of making everyone else pretty pissed off at you.

I think the brady campaigners think pretty highly of themselves and what they do. I wish we could take them to the range and just educate them a bit on what they hell they think that they know.

[Packing247]

I can't bring myself to buy a 20 shot 22 pistol, no matter the hype.
Sam

I guess a 30 shot 22 rifle like the AR-15 would fall into your same analogy then. :D

[Sam]

Wouldn't buy one of those either. Someone had to force me to use it, a when I had the chance I traded up.

The real point of this thread isn't beginning another AR vs M14 whine sessions on a handgun level. Almost the ultimate in icebergs.
The 'banning' is the point.
Read the linked article, and maybe adjust your behavior to try and keep if from happening.

Undent your sofa and work to make it right for your posterity, or you can dent the sofa and watch NASCAR and whine about icebergs. Your call. After the dust settles, expect many citizens to be making general comparisons of sofa wear. Your position in life will be determined by the lack thereof. They'll know who the dimestore commandos and drugstore cowboys are, and probably exclude them from the discussion.

Packing247, get in touch with this lady
DinkyDao@columbus.rr.com
and ask her to show you how to save a country.
It sure don't happen by supporting your favorite tools in a philosophy discussion


Sam

[Jizzle]

http://www.symbolix.com.au/storage/post-images/Heinrichs%20Triangle.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSIO N=1245218270152


heinrich's triangle. it's the bulk below the surface that you never see that is actually the issue.

how many warnings do you think that they saw on a personal level at ft bragg prior to the accident? how many small things did they just blow off concerning Nidal Malik Hasan?

a person is entirely responsible for his own actions but, and this is a big but, it's much easier to blame a person than it is an establishment or a system. what's wrong with the system?

[Packing247]

Read the linked article, and maybe adjust your behavior to try and keep if from happening.

I read your linked article. There were two points that continued jumping into my mind while doing so and that were best addressed by the following comments to the article"

""None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."[?]

--Goethe

Fortunately Mark, [Sam] there are still millions of us who strongly disagree with your defeatist perspective. Don't worry though, we'll continue to carry the torch for you.

"Today we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

--President John F. Kennedy [D-MA]"

and

"Your quote's no good, I think Mark realizes just entirely how f'd he is, he just doesn't think that situation is fixable.

And you completely fail to address the really important part of his argument; that while there are millions and millions of gun owners on our side, there are also millions and millions of gun owners on their side. That's what makes it a Civil War, and an ugly one at that."


You sure do like to throw around the "sofa denting" medifore...almost like you have some deep seeded guilt about it?

So what does one do? Well, for me; I vote, I'm active in my states pro-gun organization (Ohio has two and I'm members in both), and advocate and educate whenever the opportunity arises.....other then that...its family stuff and "sofa denting".

I am still trying to figure out your "iceberg" parable.

In order for one to have a philosophy discussion, one must understand a persons philosophy. It appeared to me from your posts that you have no problem with a ban on certain weapons (and that is what i was trying figure out).....and if that is your philosophy, then I disagree with you!

[Sam]

What exactly is your point about the "two points" in the commentary?
What parts do you agree/disagree with and why?

Sofa denting. I have some guilt about it, but that part of my life is over. The closest I come to it these days is writing on these fora.
I'll keep using it and rubbing it in the faces of heathens and social sinners till I die, so long as there are people in the country that would rather watch NASCAR (or a ball game or a sitcom) than getting off their fat asses and doing something. From what I see it's about 97% of the population. I'll kick and cuss them till hell freezes over. The root cause of our problems.


I have no fondness for banning any particular weapon or class of weapons over any other and don't see how you could make that assumption, simply because I wouldn't own a 5.7 on a dare. Jus because I don't like 5.7 (or ARs), doesn't mean I won't let you carry an inferior weapon if you want.

Icebergs:
"A Move to Ban The Cop-Killer" is an iceberg,
"Obama did this/that" is an iceberg
"Senate bill XXX will give away your gun rights" is an iceberg.
Those are symptoms, not problems and are not what should be your real target. You do not treat a disease by treating symptoms, that can only mask the problem.
Treat the damnfoolishness that lets ideas like that exist in the first place, don't wast time pointing out the pretty iceberg, bail before the ship sinks, here is a bucket, join me.

So what does one do? Well, for me; I vote, I'm active in my states pro-gun organization (Ohio has two and I'm members in both), and advocate and educate whenever the opportunity arises.....other then that...its family stuff and "sofa denting".

OK, you are involved in a minor way with the political process. What do you do to get others to vote? How often do you personally confront "evil" pols and call them on their corrupt and unconstitutional positions in public. How many people have you developed into responsible citizens by getting them to vote and confront the pols? When did you last attend a meeting of your city council/ school board/zoning commission to change things locally, does your state Representative or Senator know your voice and hate you for disturbing his internal harmony? What are you doing besides voting? Takes more than letters, emails and phone calls. Think about it, just how active are you really?

How are you 'active" in your states pro gun organization?
what are you physically doing?
How do you advocate and educate?
again what are you physically doing?

Did you take a newbie to the range yesterday? When did you last invest an hour and 2 boxes of 22lr to gain a supporter?
Can you tell me who Isaac Davis was, do you know what he looks like, and why you should be teaching children about him?
Does you daughter know who Millicent Barrett was?
Is your son acquainted with Jonathan Harrington?
Does your feminist sister know who Betsey Hager or Prudence Wright were?
Ever heard of John Dixwell? what does he or William Geoffe or Edwar Whalley have to do with you?
Where is the town of Menotomy and what does it have to do with you owning a 5.7? When you hear the words "Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." do you feel any guilt?

Sofa Dent!
If the term makes you nervous or PO'ed you should examine your conscience. If you have time to dent the sofa, you aren't doing enough.
It isn't a term of derision but one of shame. Shame that can be overcome by working hard to prevent it.
If you don't believe in saving the nation enough to give up your TV time or whatever, then we are doomed. I know who Issac Davis was, and Sam Whittemore, Hezekiah Wyman, David Lamson, and even Boston Damewood, and and I won't let anyone else forget what it cost them for you and I to have this little conversation. If we forget who those people were, if we let that memory escape a generation, you will see a Civil War.

John Adams intended that the American revolution never end and insisted that it had nothing to do with the Revolutionary War.

But what do we mean by the American Revolution? Do we mean the American war? The Revolution was effected before the war commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations...

[Packing247]

What exactly is your point about the "two points" in the commentary?
What parts do you agree/disagree with and why?

The two comments compliant each other. We are not defeated. The problem is that each side continues to "dig in" concerning their position. Not every gun owner/supporter doesn't automatically side with one belief, or one side. The real battle ground is in the middle....and the middle is what decides elections.

Sofa denting. I have some guilt about it, but that part of my life is over. The closest I come to it these days is writing on these fora.
I'll keep using it and rubbing it in the faces of heathens and social sinners till I die, so long as there are people in the country that would rather watch NASCAR (or a ball game or a sitcom) than getting off their fat asses and doing something. From what I see it's about 97% of the population. I'll kick and cuss them till hell freezes over. The root cause of our problems.

I agree. We are all guilty of this sin in one form or another. We all need a reminder (kick in the A$$) every now and then. You certainly reminded me that I could do more.

I have no fondness for banning any particular weapon or class of weapons over any other and don't see how you could make that assumption, simply because I wouldn't own a 5.7 on a dare. Jus because I don't like 5.7 (or ARs), doesn't mean I won't let you carry an inferior weapon if you want.

Nope, because you indicated in your post #3, 6, and 9 that a ban "doesn't make a difference" makes me believe that the two firearms are "icebergs" in the way of the ship of liberty. Banning wouldn't be a problem with you, and maybe encouraged?

Icebergs:
"A Move to Ban The Cop-Killer" is an iceberg,
"Obama did this/that" is an iceberg
"Senate bill XXX will give away your gun rights" is an iceberg.[

FN 5.7 and AR-15 (and maybe others) are "icebergs" according to you .

Those are symptoms, not problems and are not what should be your real target. You do not treat a disease by treating symptoms, that can only mask the problem.

so among other things...certain firearms are the problem?

Treat the damnfoolishness that lets ideas like that exist in the first place, don't wast time pointing out the pretty iceberg, bail before the ship sinks, here is a bucket, join me.

SORRY! I cant "join you" until you explain your position better. Frankly, I cant figure you out just yet (and maybe others) and even if your message is good...it doesn't help anyone if they cant understand it.

OK, you are involved in a minor way with the political process. What do you do to get others to vote? How often do you personally confront "evil" pols and call them on their corrupt and unconstitutional positions in public. How many people have you developed into responsible citizens by getting them to vote and confront the pols? When did you last attend a meeting of your city council/ school board/zoning commission to change things locally, does your state Representative or Senator know your voice and hate you for disturbing his internal harmony? What are you doing besides voting? Takes more than letters, emails and phone calls. Think about it, just how active are you really?

Well, I'm pretty active in our Democratic candidate for senate, Todd Book for Ohio's second district.

How are you 'active" in your states pro gun organization?
what are you physically doing?
How do you advocate and educate?
again what are you physically doing?

Not as much as I should...but I support with $$$. What have you been doing....writing on forums and couch denting?

Did you take a newbie to the range yesterday? When did you last invest an hour and 2 boxes of 22lr to gain a supporter?

I NEVER take a newbie with a box of 22lr. I take them with a "brick" of 12 gauge and take them trap/skeet/5 stand shooting. They have a blast and so do I. I haven't done it recentantly...but am always ready when the opportunity arises.

Can you tell me who Isaac Davis was, do you know what he looks like, and why you should be teaching children about him?
Does you daughter know who Millicent Barrett was?
Is your son acquainted with Jonathan Harrington?
Does your feminist sister know who Betsey Hager or Prudence Wright were?
Ever heard of John Dixwell? what does he or William Geoffe or Edwar Whalley have to do with you?

I have no idea who these people are. Should I know these people, and what do they have to do with today...and why should I care? If I never heard of them then they are probably not important.

Where is the town of Menotomy and what does it have to do with you owning a 5.7?

Huh?

When you hear the words "Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." do you feel any guilt?

Just because you were born in a generation doesn't necessarily mean that you personally should take credit in its accomplishments. You could have been a sofa dent. No, I don't feel any guilt. It is my generation that is fighting the battle. Your generation already had public opinion/policy in your favor....mine, not so much!

Sofa Dent!
If the term makes you nervous or PO'ed you should examine your conscience. If you have time to dent the sofa, you aren't doing enough.
It isn't a term of derision but one of shame. Shame that can be overcome by working hard to prevent it. If you don't believe in saving the nation enough to give up your TV time or whatever, then we are doomed. I know who Issac Davis was, and Sam Whittemore, Hezekiah Wyman, David Lamson, and even Boston Damewood, and and I won't let anyone else forget what it cost them for you and I to have this little conversation. If we forget who those people were, if we let that memory escape a generation, you will see a Civil War.

John Adams intended that the American revolution never end and insisted that it had nothing to do with the Revolutionary War.

Their memory has escaped my generation...and I'm 43! Nope, I'm not nervous or PO'd...just amused. I don't think that this is YOUR fight anymore Sam. This is my fight...and how I raise my boys will be THEIR fight. Can you offer anything?

[Sam]

Packing 247,
Those people have not escaped your generation but, they have escaped your education. They were instrumental in securing your liberty and that of your family. You do need to learn who they are and how they fit into your life.

This is Issac Davis, you have seen him how many thousand times with out knowing who he is.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h191/sam_damewood/IsaacDavis.jpg



You aren't getting it at all.
When you can differentiate between someone personally disliking an FN5.7 and someone who wants them banned you might be on your way though.

Go to Appleseedinfo.org, email the Ohio state coordinator and ask him how to learn about your heritage. Dinky will be happy to set you up.

Sam

[Packing247]

Packing 247,
Those people have not escaped your generation but, they have escaped your education.

Probably so. I am educated....but am not educated on "everything"

This is Issac Davis, you have seen him how many thousand times with out knowing who he is.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h191/sam_damewood/IsaacDavis.jpg


The image is familiar...I will investigate.



You aren't getting it at all.
When you can differentiate between someone personally disliking an FN5.7 and someone who wants them banned you might be on your way though.

I am not "getting it" is because you are not articulating very well. Debating with you is like debating with a woman. Instead of going through all the energy (and keyboard ware-n-tare) trying to defend your original statements, why cant you just retract and clarify?

Jesus, in all his knowledge, wisdom, and arrogance talked to his disciples in metaphors and parables (i.e. Icebergs). Today, 2000+ later, we are still trying to figure out just what the f@@k he was talking about!

Go to Appleseedinfo.org, email the Ohio state coordinator and ask him how to learn about your heritage. Dinky will be happy to set you up.


Appleseed is a very respected organization here in Ohio. I have participated in their events.

[Jizzle]

The only reason that I find sofa dent irritating is because in your original post you just assumed that you are the only one that doesn't dent his. Whether or not you meant it to be funny is not the point.

I haven't seen you at any of the A2ATF meetings here in Alamo, so how do you know who is and who isn't taking a vested interest in their communities gun rights and there by their countries gun rights.

My BA is in political science and am currently 8 classes from graduating (can't wait) and i didn't chose that course of study for the financial gain or otherwise. I chose it because I was confused about a lot of things that go on in this country and I didn't want to be. I don't like being confused. I chose to to push forward with my lawsuit from last year not for the 10k that I actually saw from it in the end but, because what they did was wrong and people needed to see that they don't have to put up with something like this. The 10k wasn't worth the year and a half of argueing and putting up with defense attorney's asking you every question imaginable that has no bearing on the actual case and your life being put under a magnifying glass for that same time period. My privacy is worth a lot. But it was worth it in the end when the judge found them liable.

I'm just one person on this site among many. And a lot of people here arn't uneducated or the couch denting types. There are different ways to go about doing your part in educating people and or pushing for better gun legsilation. Even if all you do is carry responsibly on a daily basis that's enough. Anything more is bonus.

[Sam]

Packing 247,
There is nothing to retract.
If you had participated in many Appleseed events you would have no difficulty in understanding anything I've said. Please give me a date you attended so I can speak to the instructor staff.


jizzle,
You haven't seen me at any of your meetings because you don't advertise well. I never heard of your outfit till the night before your last meeting, and that was from a friend who happened to tell me. I was already committed to teach some people that day, as I am most weekends.

In any case no one need take offense about sofa dents unless they are feeling guilty.

As for carrying responsibly being enough, that level of effort may satisfy you. Not me.

Sam

[Packing247]

Packing 247,
There is nothing to retract.
If you had participated in many Appleseed events you would have no difficulty in understanding anything I've said. Please give me a date you attended so I can speak to the instructor staff.

How are you 'active" in your states pro gun organization?
what are you physically doing?
How do you advocate and educate?
again what are you physically doing?

Why is it that you continually request information? I don't owe you any explanation, or feel the need to prove or validate ANYTHING to you.

The only thing you have done Sam is come on here and shown just how arrogant you are.

jizzle,
You haven't seen me at any of your meetings because you don't advertise well. I never heard of your outfit till the night before your last meeting, and that was from a friend who happened to tell me. I was already committed to teach some people that day, as I am most weekends.


I guess its "all your fault" Jiz that he never heard of your outfit!!

[Sam]

Packing247,
I don't want even a tiny bit of information from you.
Are you familiar with the concept of the rhetorical question?
I ask those questions of you, already knowing your answers.


I have no idea who these people are. Should I know these people, and what do they have to do with today...and why should I care? If I never heard of them then they are probably not important.

Made a point of asking you about Appleseed for the same reason, if you had BEEN ABLE to give me a shoot date I would be speaking with the instructor staff about a few things.



You strike me as being unwilling to learn, and as one who appears to pay lip service to liberty. Call me arrogant if you wish, I don't really care what you think.

Wear your chains lightly.....