NFA Shotguns

[sinclair]

Anybody got any idea why the IRS would need sawed-off shotguns in quantity ? These are not legal for private citizens unless properly registered as NFA items with the FBI.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8d3b076bd4de14bbda5aba699e80621d&tab=core&_cview=1&cck=1&au=&ck=

That is the full length link to the request for quote (RFQ) for the purchase of "sixty Remington Model 870 Police RAMAC #24587 12 gauge pump-action shotguns for the Criminal Investigation Division" of IRS. Those are 14 inch barrel models. What gives here ?

[Bman505]

Interesting site there. How did you come across it?

[mwd]

Things that make you go hmmm.......

[sinclair]

Interesting site there. How did you come across it?

Long story. Sure you want to know , or rather, sure you want the story posted in here ?

Things that make you go hmmm.......

Yes. The dates are interesting too. What is the biggest thing about the dates that is publically available and involves the IRS ?

Try this. The Health Care bill in all its variations tasks the IRS to be the enforcement agency for requiring all Americans to have health care or be fined. The IRS is also tasked to collect the fines. This provision, in my opinion, is clearly unconstitutional. This is the time frame that this IRS procurement for shotguns was prepared and released.

[calvin]

Maybe someone should contact the primary or secondary point of contact and ask why?

I guess that someone might as well be me. I'll let you all know what happened when they get through beating me with the rubber hose.

[calvin]

My server keeps giving me error messages that make no sense like server cannot read message.

Sounds fishy to me.

[Colt 45]

There has been a thread on USA Carry on this very subject:

IRS Buying Shotguns (http://www.usacarry.com/forums/2nd-amendment-politics/11430-irs-buying-shotguns.html)

Max

[calvin]

No it's saying cannot understand request/ bad request.

no explanation or how to fix it.

still sounds fishy to me.

[Sam]

These are not legal for private citizens unless properly registered as NFA items with the FBI.
Incorrect.
#1 the FBI doesn't register them .
#2 "registration" is not the issue, payment of the transfer tax is
#3 Law Enforcement Agencies are exempt from the transfer tax

What is interesting, is that they are going to have to pay the FET since they aren't buying from the manufacturer.
Ha Ha Ha

The missing 4" is a real joke. Doesn't help much.
Cuts capacity by 3 rds though. It's an over the counter item in Canada

and last but not least, I prefer that government entities be armed with inferior weaponry.

[calvin]

I agree with Sam about inferior weapons for those guys. I thinking air soft

[sinclair]

I did not think anyone would leap on that statement, but after seeing the result, I should have expected Sam would. Sam, I stand behind that statement as being accurate without being viewed as correct procedure-wise.

NFA procedure

http://www.class3weapons.com/class_3_faq_class_3_weapons.html

You say the FBI does not register them. I am taking a broad view of the meaning of "register". You will not receive an approved, tax stamp for your weapon without a background check. Who does the background check ? Where are those records kept ? How long are they kept ? Who has access to them ?

You say "registration" is not the issue, but the tax stamp is ? Then prove that by obtaining a tax stamp for a newly built class three machine gun. Conversly, only class three MG's with NFA tax stamps obtained prior to 1986 can be transferred. If that ain't registration, I don't know what is.

What is interesting, is that they are going to have to pay the FET since they aren't buying from the manufacturer.

You forgot who you are talking about. This is the IRS. While all quotes for Arms and Ammo must be bid with FAET installed, two forms make it all go away: Certificate of Ultimate Purchaser establishes the authorized LE standing to exempt FAET. Excise Tax Exemption Certificate (this is an IRS code, section 4221) which exempts authorized LE agencies from paying FAET. The bid itself indicates this is a law enforcement agency of the IRS, certainly a federal
agency ?

The missing 4" is a real joke. Doesn't help much.

The missing 2 and one half inches you mean ? 16 1/2 inch shotgun barrels are over-the-counter provided overall weapon length is maintained.

[Sam]

Nope FBI doesn't register them.

They don't do the backgrounds on NFA either.
BATFE does that directly without going through Martinsburg.

No I don't mean 2 1/2" I mean 4"
18 " is the "legal" minimum for shotguns
16" for rifles.

The bid specs with the tax. The tax is paid on the manufacturing end and since the wholesaler already paid it, he isn't going to let it go. If they were buying them direct from Wilson, or from Remington they could exempt.

When I was playing I didn't bother with stamps anyway. Nice side of SOT adn post 86 made no difference

[stoneridge]

I read this article a couple of days ago and I believe it was on Drudge. It was a link that went to this very page.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8d3b076bd4de14bbda5aba699e80621d&tab=core&_cview=1&cck=1&au=&ck=

[sinclair]

"Nope FBI doesn't register them."

Seems we are making progress here. We went from registration not being an issue to who actually registers them. Lets put some value into the debate.

"They don't do the backgrounds on NFA either."

The Form 4 is completed and submitted with the applicant's photograph attached and a fingerprint card. These are submitted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in duplicate along with the respective transfer tax. The finger print cards are forwarded to the FBI FOR A BACKGROUND CHECK. The background check and transfer process takes about 2 months or so depending on the examiners’ work load and if there are any errors on the preparers part.

"BATFE does that directly without going through Martinsburg."

You are providing an argument against the source I used but without giving one yourself. You have a more current source for this ?

"The bid specs with the tax. The tax is paid on the manufacturing end and since the wholesaler already paid it, he isn't going to let it go."

The forms referenced provide for recovery. Ever got a tax return at year's end ?

"When I was playing I didn't bother with stamps anyway. Nice side of SOT adn post 86 made no difference."

After May 20, 1986, the U.S. Government banned the further manufacture of all domestically-produced machine guns for civilian possession. Thus, anything in the NFA registry was considered "transferable" and anything registered after this date is considered "Post-86 Sample." Post-86 guns are primarily produced for law enforcement agencies and for Class III Dealers for use as a sample product to law enforcement agencies who would be prospective buyers.

This is the kicker. While the tax stamp was an infringement on the 2nd ammendment, the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, language of the Hughes ammendment to this act, actually prohibits a firearm type from civilian ownership. Post 86 makes all the difference in the world. Prior to this, such ownership was taxed. Now it is prohibited. How does "prohibited" compare with "shall not be infringed" ?

SOT letter example:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/11/111099-openletter-nfa-law-letter-requirement.html

Actually, this one is the fun one:

"No I don't mean 2 1/2" I mean 4"
18 " is the "legal" minimum for shotguns
16" for rifles."

I will concede that the original NFA does yield that derivation, except that both rifles and shotguns were limited to 18 inches in the beginning. There has been a lot of interpretations and court cases over the years. Creative ways with the NFA wording has resulted in anomalies of interpretation. For example, a shotgun barrel must be a smoothbore, and the Gun Control Act describes a shotgun as “…designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder…”

Example 1: Why is the Taurus "Judge" in 45 colt/.410 shotgun not a NFA (SBS) weapon ? You can buy it over the counter and the barrel is about 3 " long.

Example 2: Why is it possible to buy "Super Short" shot guns that do not require a $200 SBS registration. (They do require a $5 Tax stamp as an AOW)

http://www.serbu.com/legacy/shorty.htm

[sinclair]

I read this article a couple of days ago and I believe it was on Drudge. It was a link that went to this very page.

More than a couple of days ago. It was on Drudge on 3 Feb. Also about four other places I saw that day as well.

[Sam]

If you want to get picky, you were the one hot aboutproperly registered as NFA items with the FBI. which as I said is not true in either condition of the statement.

External Reference Above is not a copy of the law, a published account of the process by BATFE nor a legal opinion by a lawyer. It is advertising copy from a dealer, explaining the process as they believe it to happen.

As for fingerprints
Ever used IAFIS? The cards are a record copy for BATFE (they like them separate) and a transfer copy for IAFIS.
Yepper in the olden days, pre AFIS, the Feebies did physically look for a match on name and prints. Never did do a "background check" like you think. What they did was the functional equivalent of NICS. What is done now is feed it to IAFIS. The BATFE has their own terminal. You could say that they "send them to the FBI" in the sense that any prints scanned into IAFIS are going to the identification records repository that is operated by the FBI. If you think an agent is coming around to question your friends and neighbors as is done in a "background check" you are mistaken.

Registration, even in the hands of the BATFE is notoriously inaccurate. Some day you can buy me a beer and I'll tell you about the ROLODEXes. Better yet, call down to the office in El Paso and ask them about the ROLODEXes.

BTW, IAFIS will soon be going away, to be replaces by a "Next Generation Identification System' a derivative of BATS combining prints, DNA and retinal scan. Lockheed-Martin product.

Getting a LE letter for dealer samples is easy as pie, and for an SOT is a quick easy convenient way to acquire post 86 pieces.

These days the preferred mode to acquire is to obtain a class 07 FFL and pay the SOT, then get your letter from any head of agency you desire.
For example, a cousin, the Chief of Police in Elsinore Mo. (pop 360, police force of 1) works just fine. He wants a demonstration of XXX 3 lines is all it takes on "agency letterhead" (changes monthly when he can't find the saved computer file for letterhead).
If you make the company owning your 07FFL an an LLC like mine was (Wildcat Traders LLC), then no prints are required in any circumstance, post 86 or otherwise for the transfer.

I know 4 persons in Alamogordo that are licensees specifically for that reason and all licenses are held in company name(none gun companies), all have post 86 (DD's and other goodies).

Yes I have gotten a tax refund, never from myself.

"The Judge" is exempt because it was made with a rifled barrel, The SERBU is an AOW because it was manufactured that way and not converted from a "shotgun".
If I decide to build another Cane Gun, it too will be an AOW even if it is over 26 and 18 because it doesn't look like a firearm.

Sam

[sinclair]

Sam,

If I had originally wanted to get picky, I would have made the original statement definitive. Instead, I made it a generic association. After all, it was an add on comment to the original short news item post. It was intended to convey a colorful idea to the original news without writing a discourse on the topic. When you made a challenge, it is my nature to respond. Perhaps you missed the intent of my initial response, which was to avoid going into writing a discourse on the topic.

Sam, I stand behind that statement as being accurate without being viewed as correct procedure-wise.

I get responses from you that generates " you were the one hot about", "I said is not true", "incorrect", "like you think" (reading my mind as well ?). "you are mistaken", and so on. Many folks would view that as a personal attack. I go to extremes not to do that to others. And if I have been responsible for misleading others, I am also responsible for the correction. Which I am taking great pains at correcting here. From my perspective, you have basically challenged a humorous, advective modifier to a news item, whose truth becomes a function of procedure versus reality. You are arguing the procedure while I take the reality view. That makes it a debate, which I enjoy, hence the depth of my response. If this was not the intent of your challenge, then I apologize for assuming so.

Further, I have no hang-ups about admitting I am wrong, other than I like to learn why I am wrong as well. I think I already said so in the personal quote above, but given the ground we have covered, I also believe I have a responsibility to set things right. So, lets go back to where the heartache began.

These are not legal for private citizens unless properly registered as NFA items with the FBI.

I could have written that with more clarity, shame on me. When read against current procedure, you are quite correct. I already said so. The NFA Registry, and there is one BTW, is not maintained by the FBI but they have access to it and still play a key role in generating it. You have said so yourself. (And ATF currently, still, requires FBI fingerprint Form FD-258)

Like my original casual statement that generated this debate (for me anyway), your above response is absolutely full of statements that are challengable in the same sense as mine was. The difference to me is that I have learned to read for intent as well as content.

I left myself intentionally open to proper debate challenge via source correction. You almost picked up on the hint.

External Reference Above: is not a copy of the law, a published account of the process by BATFE nor a legal opinion by a lawyer. It is advertising copy from a dealer, explaining the process as they believe it to happen.

Kudos. You almost nailed it but did not follow through with the Grand Slam. And the Grand Slam is to do the research to set everyone else in this forum on the right course if they ever have an interest
in acquiring NFA firearms.

1. NFA the proper reference

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/

2. NFA frequently asked questions

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html

3. National Firearms Act Handbook online

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/

4. NICS system and FFL

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsfact.htm

5. another good explanation of NICS

http://ublib.buffalo.edu/libraries/e-resources/ebooks/records/edj1436.html

7. IAFIS

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/iafis.htm

8. Keeping track of law changes

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/index.html

9. Bonus.....ATF had a serious, official problem with their implimentation of background checks in 2005.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0505/exec.htm

Humorous bonus:

"The Judge" is exempt because it was made with a rifled barrel,

Bingo ! Now you know where I sourced the SBS length of 16 inches, but for bonus number two, where does the extra half inch (16 1/2 inches) come from ?

[Sam]

SBS is 18 not 16 and the 1/2"is insurance, although if they want you, most have a hacksaw in the trunk these days as part of their burglary tools

[sinclair]

Maybe we can start all over again. This time with the Dept of Education.
What do they need the short barrel shotguns for ?

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cb68cf9f3fa2fe18a83d1c3dee0039b2&tab=core&_cview=0

[Bman505]

What??????? This just doesn't seem right?

[calvin]

I just shot an E-Mail off to the inspector general-department of education and asked why.

[sinclair]

Be interesting to see if they give you a reply or they put you on the "No Fly List" or something. (grin)

[calvin]

3 days and no reply. hmmmm

[Sam]

I don't 'spect you'll ever get a reply either

[calvin]

Ya but who can you complain to?

[sinclair]

Maybe some answers in this article:

Dept of Education has "Law Enforcement" section?

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=131493

[calvin]

And the IRS adding all those new positions for tax enforcement to arrest those of us who don't plan on buying federal health ins. They will need their guns to shoot you if you resist.